RE: [bc-gnso] BC comment on singular plural

["Mari Jo Keukelaar" <mj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Andy:

 

Congratulations! (sincerely)

 

However, a series of coin tosses is a poor substitute for a definite policy,
and whether a process is sound is not determined on subjective assessment of
outcomes.  Clearly, in any binary dispute system no more than 50% of the
participants are satisfied.

 

I agree that conflicting results from such coin tosses will only add to the
confusion and controversy.

 

I still maintain, we need a policy, and I'd rather be discussing how we go
about getting one at this point.  Any ideas?

 

mj

 

 

From: owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Andy Abrams
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:36 PM
To: Mari Jo Keukelaar
Cc: Smith, Bill; jscottevans@xxxxxxxxx; bc - GNSO list
Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC comment on singular plural

 

Wow - just when you think you've got some things figured out...So in a
complete surprise, we just won our pet/pets string confusion objection
against Donuts (attached).  According to the panel, "The visual similarity
and algorithmic score are high, the aural similarity is high, the meaning
similarity is high. Objector has met its burden of proof. The cumulative
impact of these factors is such that the Expert determines that delegation
of <.pet> gTLD and the <.pets> gTLD into the root zone will cause a
probability of confusion."  

 

So I guess the proceedings aren't superfluous??  We'll see if this is an
outlier, or if there will be more of an even split in decisions, which
should only add to the confusion and controversy.  Never a dull moment...

 

Andy

 

On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Mari Jo Keukelaar <mj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Clearly, we all agree that the question of confusing similarity of generic
terms is not a trademark matter.  I believe that this is supported by what I
have been saying.

 

Given our universal agreement on that score, Objectors in string similarity
proceedings would have done well not to cite trademark cases in support of
their arguments. Trademark law does not support a concept of "confusing
similarity" as applied to generic words. Between two brands of dog food
whose labels say "dog food" or "food for dogs", there is no principle of
trademark law which will posit consumer confusion between brands as to what
is inside the can.

 

So if Objectors have used the DuPont or Sleekcraft factor analyses in their
objections, it is no surprise that the arguments are being rejected.
Someone hired trademark lawyers to argue a case which, as we all agree, is
not a trademark issue.

The objectors should simply have made the argument that it is self-evident
common sense instead of muddying the waters by reference to trademark law.
But there again, the objectors would be asking the panelists to make a
policy decision, instead of deciding the case in front of them.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that this was not addressed as a policy matter,
and we are now expecting the issue to be resolved in a number of one-off
decisions which, as I have also said, is no way to formulate policy. We are
experiencing a failure on our part as a policy making community, and not a
failure of ICANN, the ICC or the panelists.

 

Indeed the GAC has taken an interest in this matter, as they have in
relation to regionally geographic terms, to the detriment of a prominent
Luxembourg TLD applicant.  One might assume that Luxembourg did not have
sufficient influence on behalf of their native TLD applicant.  Perhaps if
that applicant was a native US applicant and taxpayer, the US could have
been of more assistance to them, but it is not usually the case that the US
government will exert itself on behalf of foreign entities.

 

If we, not only as a supporting organization, but as a community as a whole,
rely on the GAC to resolve our policy issues, they may seek to resolve
issues of their own.  Then we should not be so quick to jump all over them
for what we perceive as their failure, as we have done, not only to the GAC
but to the panels I have been defending in these posts.

 

Mari Jo

 

 

From: owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Smith, Bill
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 7:03 PM
To: Andy Abrams
Cc: Mari Jo Keukelaar; jscottevans@xxxxxxxxx; bc - GNSO list


Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC comment on singular plural

 

+1 

 

I don't see this as a trademark issue. Rather it is an issue of common sense
and "doing the right thing". It seems we lose on both counts.

 

On Aug 14, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Andy Abrams <abrams@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 

Hi Mari Jo, 

 

Thank you for your input - I think we're actually opposite each other in the
other pending car/cars case, so it's good to get other perspectives.  You
raise some very valid points, and I think the ICDR will likely agree with
your legal reasoning.  But speaking only for myself, my concerns are not
based on the application of trademark law at the top level.  Rather, as an
Internet policy matter, I respectfully believe that allowing generic
singular-plural TLDs will be confusing to consumers and bad for businesses
that wish to operate websites on one of the two TLDs.  Imagine a case where
a legitimate business is faced with negative PR, or worse, scams/phishing,
etc. because half of their prospective customers mistakenly go to used.cars
instead of used.car.  Secondly, simply as a matter of process, if is
literally impossible to win a string confusion objection unless ICANN had
already placed the strings in contention (thereby making the need for an
objection moot), it would have been nice to have that guidance prior to
everyone expending money and resources on these proceedings.  I guess we'll
learn very soon whether the remaining singular-plural decisions follow
suit...

 

Best,

 

Andy

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Mari Jo Keukelaar <mj@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

To be clear: the decisions reached in car/cars and hotel/hotels are actually
more in keeping with present interpretation of trademark law than they are
dissimilar since plurals of generic words are not "confusingly similar" to
other generic words under traditional trademark analysis. We should avoid
applying terminology from trademark law out of context, in what are contests
between strings that are not themselves trademarks.

 

In these "generic word" disputes, the objecting parties have tended to make
arguments based on trademark confusing similarity analysis. In that
analysis, though, the trademark has already been determined to be
distinctive. So those circumstances involve comparing something to something
else which has established distinctiveness. The point is to avoid erosion of
what are already distinctive marks. That reasoning just does not apply to
generic terms.

 

This has been true for years under the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Policy.
No confusing similarity was found between "Tire Discounter" and "Tire
Discounters" despite the difference of only a single letter in Tire
Discounters, Inc. v. TireDiscounter.com, NAF Claim Number: 

FA0604000679485 ("[b]ecause the mark is merely descriptive, small
differences matter").

 

Nor was confusing similarity found between the "The Suit Warehouse" mark and
a "SuitWarehouse" domain name because the presence of descriptively common
words necessarily restricts the "confusingly similar" analysis very closely
to exact identity. The Men's Wearhouse Inc. v. Brian Wick d/b/a
Defaultdata.com, NAF Claim Number: FA0208000117861.

 

The results have been no different under the Lanham Act. In a similarity
analysis between "ENTREPRENEUR" and "ENTREPRENEUR PR" in two internet domain
names, the 9th Circuit declined to find confusing similarity, noting, "[i]n
the Internet context, consumers are aware that domain names for different
Web sites are quite often similar, because of the need for language economy,
and that very small differences matter." Entrepreneur Media, Inc. v. Smith,
279 F. 3d 1135, 1147 (9th Cir., 2002).

 

Additionally, the notion that terms lacking distinctiveness are not subject
to "confusing similarity" analysis is also true outside of the US, as the
High Court of Australia opined in Hornsby Building Information Centre Pty
Ltd v. Sydney Building Information Centre Ltd, [1978] HCA 11:

 

"There is a price to be paid for the advantages flowing from the possession
of an eloquently descriptive trade name. Because it is descriptive it is
equally applicable to any business of a like kind, it's very descriptiveness
ensures that it is not distinctive of any particular business."

 

Of course if you are dealing with established distinctive marks then, yes,
"Verizons" will be confusingly similar to "Verizon". But the scope of
"confusing similarity" has always been delimited by the distinctiveness of
the mark under analysis.

 

That a panel, applying ordinary principles of application of the trademark
term "confusingly similar" would decline to find such similarity between two
generic words is neither surprising nor unusual. If this was an unexpected
result, then one might just as well ask how lawyer.com <http://lawyer.com/>
and lawyers.com <http://lawyers.com/>  manage to exist under different
ownership (along with cars.com/car.com, house.com/houses.com
dog.com/dogs.com, and many other generic words). 

 

Furthermore, and perhaps even more importantly, under the ICANN rules we are
not merely looking at "confusing similarity" but rather, a higher standard
of "impermissible" confusing similarity. Comparing these string objections
to outcomes in trademark cases is the proverbial mixing of apples and
oranges because the generic strings involved are not, as a threshold matter,
even trademarks. The lack of distinctiveness in generic words drives the
result that they are not entitled to the broad swath of protection afforded
that which would be impermissibly confusing.

 

ICANN has done much to protect trademark interests and we can all argue as
to whether they have done enough or not.  Here, however, we are not even
talking about trademarks; we are dealing with two generic terms.  The panels
did not lose sight of that and I wonder why we sit here bashing them for
applying the Policy we all approved and the law over which we've little
control.

 

Mari Jo Keukelaar, M.A./J.D.

Name Administration, Inc.

 

 

 

From: owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Andy Abrams
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:09 PM
To: Steve DelBianco


Cc: bc - GNSO list

Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC comment on singular plural

 

 

Update: the first singular-plural decisions have come in.  Both
singular-plural decisions have gone against a finding of string confusion
(our car/cars objection against Donuts, and a Hotel Top-Level-Domain
S.a.r.l. v. Booking.com B.V. for hotel/hotels).  In the car/cars decision,
the Panel stated: "It is true that 

the ICANN visual similarity standards appear quite narrow, but it is not the
role [of] this Panel to substitute for ICANN's expert technical findings."
In the hotel/hotels decision, the Panel similarly stated: "I find persuasive
the degrees of similarity or dissimilarity between the strings by use of the
String Similarity Assessment Tool, that ICANN did not put the applications
for .HOTEL and .HOTELS in the same contention set."  In other words, the
early results suggest that the ICDR may give complete deference to ICANN's
earlier refusal to essentially find any instances of string confusion, no
matter how close the strings.

 

Andy

 

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Steve DelBianco <sdelbianco@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Here's what we just told the Board at the Public Forum, on behalf of the BC

 

ICANN's String Similarity Panel was to place into contention sets any
strings that create a possibility of user confusion.

 

But in late February ICANN published contention sets that did NOT include 24
pairs of singular-plural forms of the same string (English and Spanish)
Sport(s) Loan(s)    Web(s)    Game(s)  Hotel(es)

 

Risks of allowing both singular and plural TLDs for the same word are well
understood.

-confusion

-precedent for the next round

-ICANN looking pretty ridiculous

 

What's not understood is how it happened and what we can do about it.

 

First response is to ask if the panelist follow GNSO Policy on confusingly
similar.

 

Second response is "Chong"  ( Chinese for "Do-over" )

-Do-over on just these 24 pairs 

- WIPO Mediation Rules, Article 1 says, "Words used in the singular include
the plural and vice versa, as the context may require."

 

Guess we could correct the Guidebook (plurals are confusingly similar)

 

String Confusion Objections on 7 of these pairs are in the hands of the ICDR
rightnow.  If ICSR does the right thing and finds these pairs should be
contention sets, The Board can apply this rule to ALL 24 pairs 

 

Failing that, there's Formal Reconsideration. 

 

We all worry about threat from inter-governmental groups just waiting for
ICANN to stumble.

 

We have enough vulnerability to stumble with so many unknowns in the new
gTLD launch.

 

No need to add to our vulnerability with this self-inflicted wound





 

-- 
Andy Abrams | Trademark Counsel
Google | 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043

 <https://www.google.com/voice#phones> (650) 669-8752





 

-- 
Andy Abrams | Trademark Counsel
Google | 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043 

 <https://www.google.com/voice#phones> (650) 669-8752

 





 

-- 
Andy Abrams | Trademark Counsel
Google | 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway, Mountain View, CA 94043

 <https://www.google.com/voice#phones> (650) 669-8752