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In response and objection to Andrew Snow, Verisign-and Mr. Chuck Gomes

  • To: comments-rpm-requirements-06aug13@xxxxxxxxx
  • Subject: In response and objection to Andrew Snow, Verisign-and Mr. Chuck Gomes
  • From: david cohen <idumforums@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 14:59:55 +0300

I believe that Verisign should be allowed to reserve any names it deems
fit, just as any registry regardless of existing Verisign hybrid owners *who
have NO rights whatsoever* in the new gTLD’s, as will be explained below in
detail. I believe that Registries should  have a right to have a reserved
list which shall include generic terms (ASCII & IDN) even if they exist
within the TMCH, and should not be subjected to the TMCH.

Reserved lists and founder programs are of generic names in general and of
domains related to the specific TLD or community. There is no reason to
allow the TMCH to be gamed as done in the .EU launch and other instances.
Real TM owners of non-generics have nothing to worry about. At the most a
quick UDRP later on, and they will get the domain, if they are entitled to

Verisign please pay attention. A major storm is coming, if you give the
hybrid IDN domainers first rights. I do believe names should be reserved so
as not to allow gaming of the system in  the TMCH. However, you should be
allowed to reserve those names with no strings attached.

Below is a detailed explanation why there is no confusion. It is
posted here below and I took it from a friend’s previous comment.
Apparently, Verisign and Mr. Snow never bothered reading it, because
it proves beyond doubt that Hybrid idn.com(ascii)owners don’t have and
should not have any rights to the full idn.idn. As I don’t think
everyone has the patients to get to the nit and grit, it is written
below. However again, I recommend Verisign and Mr. Gomez to read it
carefully, as it will help them later on.

David Cohen

Now to why Verisign does NOT need to give owners of IDN.COM(ASCII|) the
equivalent IDN.IDN.

1. Users have not been intuitively and naturally interchangeably using
.com (in ascii) and .com (transliterated in local script) without any
distinction whatsoever. That is baloney and sheer nonsense!

For example:

CNNIC at the end of the day, did not see any confusion or problem in having

ChineseIDN.CN & ChineseIDN. 中国 go to separate owners (CN=中国=China).
The major difference in their case is that both co-existed for quite
awhile. In the new gTLD's we are talking about a new delegation of

 So this is very different. Hence in this case it is much simpler and
there isn’t the slightest problem in delegating them to separate
owners FROM IDN.COM(ASCII), as these new IDN.IDN did not exist within
ICANN until now.

2. There will be no insecurity or confusion if it were delegated to
others. As you all recall there are many new gTLD’s that are way more
confusing and allowed to coexist as .car and .cars etc…  And if you
followed any of the different objections within the program, you will
see that your argument has no real merit.

If their claim were to be accepted it would mean that 100% there will
be confusion in the new gTLD's between applications for  .GAMES vs.
JUEGOS  ("games" in Spanish) and many others. Since there is no
confusion in those cases there would be no confusion between .COM or
.ORG in English to the transliteration in Chinese Arabic Hebrew
Russian etc…!

 3. Regarding you comment that they already exist… Well sorry. They
don’t. They are not interchangeable as presented in point #1.  By the
way, if anyone got screwed its existing users of Hebrew.Hebrew IDN’s
.com(in Hebrew). They got messed up by the agreement that was signed
between Verisign and domainthenet. There have been .com in Hebrew
domains, that have been full idn.idn for more than 10 years in Israel
and supported by ALL ISP’s!!  All those companies that have legal
rights and use those domains have been screwed by this agreement. So
they had full Hebrew idn.idn. If anyone has any claim or rights to
Verisign’s now full idn.idn and can claim confusion –its them  and not
your hybrid idn.com(ascii), which no one would mistake them at all to
be real full idn.idn. So if they don’t have any rights, you for sure
have no special rights. And let me surprise you. They do have rights.
More than yours. Yet, they have not gotten any preference. So neither
should you. Verisign should be allowed to reserve names and allocate
them to whomever they  wish.

4. Again, your argument is based on the hypothesis that hybrid idn.com
(Ascii) and hybrid idn.net (ascii) owners are entitled to full
idn.com(transliterated in local script).  However if there is no
confusion so then your de facto domains exist for many years argument
is totally irrelevant.

 The confusion is only in the mind of certain hybrid IDN domain owners
who are looking out for their own interest, and trying to mislead the
public. They have no legal rights or standing for IDN.IDN in Arabic,
Hebrew, Chinese , Korean or Russian, whether it be in .COM .NET or
.ORG transliterations.

 Verisign and PIR can feel very safe to open the new IDN era, and give
it to new applicants. They have no legal obligation to give it to any
existing hybrid domain owners.

 Here is the actual detailed explanation:

There is no reason not to allow different registrants for those 2 strings.ie.
 idn.com(ascii) and idn.com(transliterated to the specific languages)

1.Is books.com confusing with books.co, or books.co.uk? It is not.

2.You are looking at the domain extension & saying that its pronounced the
same & should be given to current owner of hybrid names but that is not the
case. Get your facts straight. Saying ".com" in English is not identical to
saying ".קום" in Hebrew. It is not pronounced the same way & can have a
different meaning too! In fact "קום" means "get up" in Hebrew.

3. By the way "com" in English is an abbreviation of "company" or
"commerce" & the letters are put in after the "com", whereas the "com is a
beginning of a word. However in Hebrew קום is an ending to a word or is a
specific word of its own (it means "get up"), but there is no com_-pany. It
is more like קום ___ as in אינטרקום, המקום(intercom, the place). In English
"com " is an abbreviation & is a start of a word, while in Hebrew it's an
ending to a word or a word of its own.

In reusing the following example::

Bankhapoalim.com is a name of a bank in Israel.

בנקהפועלים = bankhapoalim

When it is said in English or in Hebrew it is said the same way. The only
difference would be in the accent the person used. A Hebrew accent or
English one.

Secondly saying " .com" in English is not identical to saying " .קום" in
Hebrew. It is not pronounced the same way & doesn’t even sound the same
way! It’s a different vowel. In Hebrew It's an "o" vowel/sound for the
proposed extension, while in English even though its cOm its an "a" vowel.
In fact "קום" can mean "get up" in Hebrew as mentioned above with the vowel
being "u".


בנקהפועלים.com (Hebrewidn.com)

בנקהפועלים.קום (The new proposed Hebrew idn.Hebrewidn). In Hebrew as in
Arabic you can see that the domain is here on the right side of the dot
contrary to the hybrid Hebrew idn.com where it is on the left of the dot.
You can also see that the extension is on the left of the side of the dot
contrary to the hybrid Vrs.. Hebrew idn.com)

Falko, your logic is flawed. According to your own logic
bankhapoalim.comshould be the rightful owner of
בנקהפועלים.com ( the hybrid domain). The owner of ascii.com should be the
owner of idn-whateverlanguge.com(.com in English), because it is much more
confusing than anything else. Now let's drill down some more:


בנקהפועלים.com (hybrid Hebrew idn.com)

As you can see the domain is on the left side of the dot in both those
cases, & the .com is on the right side of the dot also in both cases.

So .com on the right is equal to .com on the right in both cases. Meaning,
the English .com on the right of the dot is the exact same word in English
in both cases!

The word "Bankhapoalim" on the left of the dot in "bankhapoalim.com" is the
same in meaning & sound to the word " בנקהפועלים " on the left of the dot
in בנקהפועלים.com (hybrid Hebrew idn.com).

So the confusing situation is between ascii.com (ascii) & idn.com (ascii)!
The reason being:

The meaning on the left of the dot in both cases is identical!

The sound in this example is also identical between both domains on the
left of the dot!

Thirdly the domains in both cases are on the left & the extension
English.com is on the right!

Fourth as mentioned above the English .com on the right of the dot is the
exact same word in English in both cases!

This means ASCII.com English owners should have a right to the hybrid IDN's
of Verisign according to your logic!!

Even more so, the direction in writing is clearly in both those cases from
left to right. " bankhapoalim.com" & "בנקהפועלים.com" - so it's actually
quite confusing.

However in Hebrew.Hebrew " בנקהפועלים.קום " it is from right to left! So
the right of the dot is the domain name & on the left of the dot is the
extension. This is totally opposite from the hybrid IDN of Verisign "
בנקהפועלים.com " where the domain is on the left side of the dot & the
extension is on the right side of the dot! So there is no confusion. Those
who posted previously about Hebrew and Arabic are ignorant & don’t know
what they are saying. This is the same situation in Arabic.

Beyond that, if you are speaking or planning to write a full idn.idn or a
full ascii.ascii you don’t usually change accents or languages while you
are talking or writing. So when full IDN is used it will be clear that one
is NOT referring to the hybrid IDN's of Verisign. They are therefore not
confusing if given to other registrants or to another registry.

Also, when one tells someone else to enter a hybrid IDN site the person
will certainly explain that the domain is in Hebrew & MUST be written on
the left, & the domain extension is on the right & in English.

However when someone will have an IDN.IDN in Hebrew or any other language
they won't need to say that or change their language as they are speaking
or writing, but rather just say it in the specific language.

If a person knows what IDN's are, it is clear there is no confusion when
speaking or inputting a hybrid domain because there is a MAJOR change in
direction when writing & change in language & position of domain &

If a person doesn’t even know what IDN's are he clearly will not mix the
hybrid Verisign domains with full IDN.IDN, as the explanation for full
IDN.IDN will be very different & intuitive too. It will be said in one
specific language. It will be going from the right to left in Arabic &
Hebrew, & not changing languages or direction for the extension, & the
extension will be on the left side of the dot.. No one who is looking for
an idn.idn will go to idn.com in English or would think that they are the
same. They would never be confused between the 2.

It is so ugly & not useful & barely got any use b/c its not comfortable in
using. Therefore the chances are NON EXISTENT for confusion. There are way
more chances of confusion between ascii.com & ascii.idn as presented above.
This is true in Arabic too.

No one in his own right mind would confuse them or think they are the same
unless they are just those owners of hybrid Verisign names who have big
eyes & want what they don’t have. Rightfully they have no right to them as
shown above.

This is the same in Arabic too which is written from right to left.

In addition there exists a community of Hebrew.Hebrew owners with this
extension based on comments I read and research done. Those domains are
supported by all ISP's there. So besides not allowing aliasing because it
doesn't make sense etc., it should also be objected do to community
existence. There are owners of existing .קום (com in Hebrew) who have legal
rights and use those domains and have websites and should be protected too.

In conclusion, Verisign does not need to alias this or any of their other
extensions.. The owners of hybrid IDN.com owners do not have prior rights &
it is not confusing. If anything is confusing it is ASCII.COM with IDN.COM.

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