RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

["Mike Rodenbaugh" <mxr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I would say the data would be more relevant without restrictions of
"re-registered more than say 3 times, each time immediately prior to the
last" -- if it is done twice by related parties then I would consider it
kiting, and it need not be necessarily immediate since I imagine some of
the kiters are smart enough to wait and re-register after some time.  I
would like to know how many domains have been re-registered more than
once and dropped during AGP, by any related registrar, within a year.
Of course it is tough to define 'related registrar' and so maybe the
best we can do is have the raw number of domains dropped in AGP and
re-registered within another 5 days, one month, 3 mos., 6 mos. and one
year?  That wouldn't necessarily prove that all of those domains were
kited, but may be useful info at least to show the maximum extent of
kiting.

Is this something ICANN Staff could possibly do, or would we need
registries to provide custom data?

Mike Rodenbaugh


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:46 AM
To: Paul Stahura; Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

I will see if I can dig up some stats for NeuStar....recognizing of
course the amount of tasting in .biz is pretty much insignificant at
this point compared to .com.

Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & Business Development 

NeuStar, Inc. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Stahura [mailto:stahura@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:37 AM
To: Neuman, Jeff; Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

True, but I suspect "can" (theoretically) and "do" (practically) are two
different things.
Since you say you know, please tell us, for your registry, how many
names are registered each day (say for each of the last 30 days) that
have been registered and deleted (during AGP) more than say 3 times,
each time immediately prior to the last.

-----Original Message-----
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:30 AM
To: Paul Stahura; Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

Paul,

Given the fact that they can switch resellers, registrars, etc., and
change the domain name registrant information every time, I am not sure
that a registry can tell and therefore shut off a registrar or family of
registrars.

We can certainly tell which registrars do the tasting, but cannot
necessarily tell which do the kiting.  But I will pass your question on
to VeriSign.


Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. 
Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services  & Business Development 

NeuStar, Inc. 



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Paul Stahura
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:19 AM
To: Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

Danny, in that comment, I believe the commenter was talking about the
practice where NSI would invoice for a name and then not collect the
payment.  This was when you could register a name via an email template
to NSI. The 5-day grace period did not happen until later.  I think the
concern you cite back then prompted the introduction of 3.7.4 of the
RRA:

3.7.4 Registrar shall not activate any Registered Name unless and until
it is satisfied that it has received a reasonable assurance of payment
of its registration fee. For this purpose, a charge to a credit card,
general commercial terms extended to creditworthy customers, or other
mechanism providing a similar level of assurance of payment shall be
sufficient, provided that the obligation to pay becomes final and
non-revocable by the Registered Name Holder upon activation of the
registration

I see what you are saying about 5-day re-registrations (formerly called
"kiting").  I would also like to understand the extent of it.  I'm
pretty sure VeriSign would cut off a registrar (or a "family" of
registrars) for repeatedly registering then deleting then re-registering
domains again and again during the 5-day grace period, but I'd like to
know for sure.

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:04 AM
To: Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts

Tim,

Sorry to have to disagree.  When I look back at the U.S. Statement of
Policy (the White Paper), I see the following language:

Comments:  A number of commenters objected to NSI's current business
practice of allowing registrants to use domain names before they have
actually paid any registration fees. These commenters pointed out that
this practice has encouraged cybersquatters and increased the number of
conflicts between domain name holders and trademark holders. They
suggested that domain name applicants should be required to pay before a
desired domain name becomes available for use. 

Response:  The failure to make a domain name applicant pay for its use
of a domain name has encouraged cyberpirates and is a practice that
should end as soon as possible.
 

As kiting is the equivalent of an ongoing failure to pay for the use of
a domain name, and as, in my view, typosquatting has become an epidemic
in conjunction with the manifestation of tasting, I believe that the
topic remains germane for discussion.

Frankly, I would like to see if ICANN staff can quantify the extent of
this kiting practice.  As far as I understand, they have access to the
records and have the technical staff that could perform an analysis
(even if only on the basis of a statistically valid sample).

We're here to get the facts... all of them (and that includes facts on
the extent of kiting being condoned and facilitated by members of the
registrar community).


--- Tim Ruiz <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> All, I would suggest the group just focus on tasting in general for 
> three reasons. First, it is that practice overall that is responsible 
> for the volume we're seeing, and most of the issues some have with it.
> Second, as Mike notes, kiting is not easily quantified and it is also 
> just a form of tasting. Third, some view kiting as a degrogatory term 
> which as Jeff notes could incite unproductive discussions and the 
> group doesn't need or want to get sidetrackd with that, I hope.
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts
> From: "Jeffrey Eckhaus" <jeckhaus@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wed, July 25, 2007 8:34 am
> To: "Mike Rodenbaugh" <mxr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,  "Jay Westerdal"
> <jwesterdal@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,  "Alan Greenberg"
> <alan.greenberg@xxxxxxxxx>,  <gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx>
> 
> 
> Mike,
>  
> I do not want to start a flame war on email or pick on you , so is it 
> possible we can ask all participants to keep from discussing rumors, 
> hearsay, anecdotal evidence and informal discussions from this group 
> as I believe collecting facts is one of the core missions here
>  
>  
> Thanks
>  
>  
> Jeff
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Rodenbaugh
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:18 AM
> To: Jay Westerdal; Alan Greenberg;
> gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts
>  
> The press release does make a distinction between tasting and kiting, 
> and it is important to keep them differentiated because not all 
> tasting is kiting.
>  
> Hopefully we will find stats to show how much of tasting is actually 
> kiting, but I think those stats are actually impossible because the 
> kiters use multiple registrar accreditations and identities to do 
> their work.  I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence and reporting, 
> showing cases of kiting have been found by Verisign informally and 
> alleged by a few brand owners in court.  Anyone with any info is 
> encouraged to provide.
>  
> Mike Rodenbaugh
>  
> 
> 
> 



       
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/