RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task

["Ron Andruff" <randruff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Dear all,

 

As I follow the debate it is becoming more apparent to me that both sides
appear to be right.  Both arguments have merit.  On the one hand, consensus
development is the goal of ICANN and so arriving at consensus should always
be the guiding principle.  On the other, there are numerous examples of when
votes are cast that decision is final - and therefore no chance of a ‘do
over’.  As we, ourselves, need to find full consensus on the issues that
come before the SCI to fulfill our mandate, I would like to change the
course of the discussion from what appears to be a deepening divide to a
discussion that could provide a ‘win’ for both sides of the current debate.


 

What is going through my mind is the following question: Rather than argue
whether a motion can be voted on twice, or re-voted, as it were, would it be
possible/make sense to bring a reformulated motion back for vote at the
following GNSO Council meeting?  A ‘reformulated motion’ is one that
achieves the same result, but it is not the same motion.  This concept may
or may not make sense, but the goal of my suggestion is to see how we can
come together to achieve what both sides of the current debate are looking
for – consensus without a ‘slippery slope’ solution.  Again, in order to
fulfill our task, we must find full consensus within the SCI and the
direction we are going with the discussion on the list appears to be taking
us away from that goal.

 

What are your thoughts on this concept?

 

Kind regards,

 

RA

 

Ronald N. Andruff

RNA <http://www.rnapartners.com>  Partners, Inc.

  _____  

From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alain Berranger
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:26 PM
To: Jen Wolfe
Cc: Neuman, Jeff; Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx; avri@xxxxxxx;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task

 

Thanks Jennifer,

 

Common sense speaks again! The black belt argument will often close a
discussion, though!!!! ;-) Many involved with ICANN would likely benefit
from six sigma training... including myself!

 

Let's see what the Standing Committee on GNSO Improvements Implementation I
discussions will lead too.

 

Cheers, Alain

 

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Jen Wolfe <jwolfe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi everyone,

 

I hope your new year is  off to a great start.  I know I am new to the
council and this committee so forgive me if I am misunderstanding our role,
but what confused me about this particular issue was that all of the
councilors had the opportunity for discussion, to ask questions and for
consensus.  A vote was taken and then a councilor asked further clarifying
questions and then wanted to change his vote.  From a strictly process
standpoint, I am not clear on why a new vote should be allowed once the time
for discussion and clarifying questions close.  In any other parliamentary
procedure, legislative body or corporate governance on boards, once a vote
is taken, that’s it, even if someone misunderstood something procedurally or
substantively. 

 

I fully understand the need for consensus, but once discussion closes and a
vote is taken, from a process and procedural standpoint, it’s a slippery
slope to start allowing votes to be re-opened because one person asked a
clarifying question after the vote was taken.  It not only takes up valuable
time of the council in discussing new issues, but could be used
inappropriately in the future if this were permissible.  

 

I look forward to participating in this committee.  I have a black belt in
six sigma process improvement and pride myself on finding ways to function
more efficiently and hope I can provide meaningful contributions to this
committee.  

 

Have a great weekend!

 

jennifer c. WOLFE, esq., apr, SSBB

managing director, wolfe domain, a digital brand strategy adivsory firm

managing partner, wolfe, sadler, breen, morasch & colby, an intellectual
property law firm

IAM 300 - TOp 300 global ip strategists 2011 & 2012

Follow Me:  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jenwolfe> Description: Description:
cid:image001.png@01CDC0CD.AB7D59C0  <http://pinterest.com/wolfedomain/>
Description: Description: cid:image002.png@01CDC0CD.AB7D59C0
<https://twitter.com/jenwolfe> Description: Description:
cid:image003.png@01CDC0CD.AB7D59C0
Blog:  <http://jenwolfe.com/c-suite/> What will you do when your CEO asks
why you didn’t apply for a gTLD?

Book:
<http://www.amazon.com/Domain-Names-Rewired-Strategies-Protection/dp/1118312
627> Domain Names Rewired

 

 

From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:05 PM
To: Alain Berranger; Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx


Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task

 

All,

 

I am still missing the rationale as to why the NCSG representatives believe
this rule should be in place for a bottom-up consensus driven organization.


 

Please help me understand.

 

Jeffrey J. Neuman 
Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs

 

From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger@xxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:01 PM
To: Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx;
jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx; Neuman, Jeff
Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task

 

 

I agree fully with Mary's arguments.

 

Best, Alain

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:16 PM, <Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks, Jonathan and Jeff. As I won't be on the SCI call this week, my view,
FWIW, is that a motion that is properly introduced, seconded and voted on
should NOT be re-introduced (whether in its original form or tweaked) in the
absence of clear evidence indicating fraud, duress or other similar
circumstance surrounding the original introduction/seconding/vote in
relation to the motion. In this regard, Councilors' ignorance of the rules
(e.g. effect of an abstention), and lack of instruction/direction from a
Councilor's particular constituency/SG, should NOT count as the type of
circumstance that ought to permit a reintroduction or re-vote on what in
substance is the same motion.



Cheers
Mary

Mary W S Wong
Professor of Law
Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
Chair, Graduate IP Programs
UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
Two White Street
Concord, NH 03301
USA
Email: mary.wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
Phone: 1-603-513-5143
Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN)
at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584 

 

>>> "Jonathan Robinson" 01/10/13 1:12 AM >>>

All,

 

My understanding of the role of the SCI is to determine how improvements may
be made for the future.

 

When the motion was re-submitted to the December meeting, I do not believe
that there was any procedure to guide the Council on the re-introduction of
a motion that had recently been voted on.

 

This specific issue has highlighted that we may need something to guide us
on this in future.  I do not believe that the SCI?s hands are tied at all.

 

We have one useful example which raised concerns and now need to look at  as
general solution as possible for the future in order to cover both the
example that raised the concern and other cases which may occur in future.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Jonathan

 

From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 09 January 2013 16:58
To: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx; Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task

 

I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this
specific instance:

- the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on.

- just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were
not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should
be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of
something that was properly introduced and voted on.

- In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given
instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the
fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a
constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to
discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion
(again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on).

- In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and
referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion
(without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI
before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are
somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through -
the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote
was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive
context within which ICANN is operating.

Cheers
Mary

Mary W S Wong
Professor of Law
Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
Chair, Graduate IP Programs
UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
Two White Street
Concord, NH 03301
USA
Email: mary.wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
Phone: 1-603-513-5143
Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN)
at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584 


>>> Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>

Another thought experiment.

There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy
Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote,
some voters got confused and voted against.

Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote? 

Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just
reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps
even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote?

A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive
that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to
have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting?

avri


On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:

> 
> Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be
reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on
reconsideration in the ByLaws. 
> 
> One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of
those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it
was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
> 
> We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
> 
> avri
> 
> 
> 
> On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
> 
>> I tend to agree,
>> 
>> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman@xxxxxxxxx>; 
>> To: 'Avri Doria' <avri@xxxxxxx>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx>; 
>> Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx>; 
>> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task 
>> Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type
inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a
motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how
obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going
to discuss tomorrow.
> 
> the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
> 
>> 
>> I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO
Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can
provide prior to our call.
> 
> It is all in the g-counci Procedures.
> And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already
made.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Thank you
>> Anne
>> 
>> 
>> Anne E. Aikman-Scalese
>> Of Counsel
>> Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700
>> One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611
>> Tel (520) 629-4428 <tel:%28520%29%20629-4428>  * Fax (520) 879-4725
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>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM
>> To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: Jonathan Robinson
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I guess I do not support that.
>> 
>> I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back,
something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
>> 
>> And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions
to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING
to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs
and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
>> 
>> I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should
never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair
from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination
of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
>> 
>> A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC
based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go
her way.
>> 
>> avri
>> 
>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Avri,
>>> 
>>> Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the
spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two
votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some
evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did
not happen.
>>> 
>>> I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of
misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
>>> 
>>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@xxxxxxxx]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>> To: Neuman, Jeff
>>> Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx; Jonathan Robinson
>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is
not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at
the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board
for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that
the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has
passed or not.
>>> 
>>> To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the
reality of the situation.
>>> 
>>> avri
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to
as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items.
If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy
(provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the
recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and
reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the
Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not
supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
>>>> 
>>>> All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result
in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately
there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second
measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and
unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse
within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence
that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse,
harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a
second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@xxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>>> To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote
as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two
remedies were possible.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it
is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and
accountability.
>>>> 
>>>> Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make
the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder
group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able
vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those
poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing
could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been
President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had
been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes
unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
>>>> 
>>>> avri
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca

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-- 
Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA

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Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca

Treasurer, Global Knowledge Partnership Foundation, www.gkpfoundation.org

NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
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