Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC

[Zahid Jamil <zahid@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi everyone just wanted to repeat the qs I asked at the council yesterday 
regarding Red Cross extensions that include Red Crystal and Red Lion and Sun 
and phrases wrt these terms.  Wanted see if I could more info on that...basis 
and protections of the phrases etc.



Best regards, 

Zahid Jamil
Barrister-at-law
Jamil & Jamil
Barristers-at-law
219-221 Central Hotel Annexe
Merewether Road, Karachi. Pakistan
Cell: +923008238230
Tel: +92 21 5680760 / 5685276 / 5655025
Fax: +92 21 5655026
www.jamilandjamil.com

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On 11 Mar 2012, at 10:50, "Shatan, Gregory S." <GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> The fact that the GAC may not have full consensus should not be surprising.  
> It would probably be more surprising if they did -- on this or any other 
> issue.
>  
> As for the OECD, I think their letter was based largely on a set of false 
> premises and a lack of understanding of the rationale for setting the IOC and 
> RCRC apart.  I'm sure this was not intentional, but it does discount the 
> substance of their concerns.
>  
> In a sense, I am sympathetic with their desire to bootstrap IGOs onto the 
> proposed protection for the IOC/RCRC.  We know that they would like similar 
> protections.  It's not surprising that they would try to make an argument 
> that they are just like or better than the IOC/RCRC.  The fact that they 
> could not come up with a high quality argument is a sign that it will not be 
> so easy to argue convincingly that IGO's are the same as the IOC/RCRC and 
> thus entitled to the same protection.  "Slippery slope" arguments like those 
> made below only work when distinctions are difficult to draw between those 
> included and those excluded.  Where there are clear distinctions, as there 
> are here, a slippery slope argument really doesn't hold water, and can even 
> tend to be a "scare tactic."  For example, one of the potential Republican 
> nominees for US President, Rick Santorum, has used such specious slippery 
> slope arguments in attempts to support his opposition to gay sex and marriage:
> "[I have] a problem with homosexual acts, as I would with what I would 
> consider to be acts outside of traditional heterosexual relationships . . . 
> if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex 
> within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to 
> polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery." -- 
> Rick Santorum on gay sex, AP interview
> 
> "In every society, the definition of marriage has not ever to my knowledge 
> included homosexuality. That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you 
> know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be. It is one thing. 
> And when you destroy that you have a dramatic impact on the quality." -- 
> Rick Santorum, AP interview
> 
> Thus, I would tend to discard the slippery slope argument that if IOC and 
> RCRC opens the door to every other group that would like the same 
> protections, and that the only way to deal with future petitioners is to bar 
> the door to the IOC and RCRC.
>  
> Thank you.
>  
> Greg Shatan 
>  
> 
> From: Winterfeldt, Brian [mailto:bwinterfeldt@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:55 AM
> To: 'J. Scott Evans'; Neuman, Jeff
> Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Shatan, 
> Gregory S.; gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx; council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> I support Jeff as well.  I think the path forward should not change unless 
> there is a different directive given by the GAC.
>  
> Best regards,
> 
> Brian
>  
> Brian J. Winterfeldt, Esq.
> Steptoe & Johnson LLP
>  
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of J. Scott Evans
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:34 AM
> To: Neuman, Jeff
> Cc: Konstantinos Komaitis; Gomes, Chuck; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Gregory 
> Shatan; gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx; council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
>  
>  
> Dear All,
>  
> I completely agree with Jeff.   Our job at this point is to stat the course.  
> The issues raised by OECD are for the GAC to debate and come to consensus 
> and, even then, we could conclude that NGO protection is unwarranted.
>  
> J. Scott
>  
> Sent from my iPad
>  
> On Mar 11, 2012, at 3:06 PM, "Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>  
> >
> > Konstantinos,
> >
> > The correspondence yesterday was the same correspondence we have had for 
> > months.  Lets not jump to any conclusions because of the statements of a 
> > VERY small minority of GAC members.  Remember, the GAC cannot change course 
> > without a consensus of the GAC.  If the Chair, the US, the EU and others 
> > object to changing course within the GAC, then the GAC cannot by its very 
> > definition of consensus change course.
> >
> > Lets not make more of this issue than it is at this point.  Plus, remember, 
> > if the GAC were to change course, we could always say no.  And yes, there 
> > is a rationale to treat the IOC and Red Cross differently than the other 
> > OECD organizations (according to the GAC).  The GAC letter explained that 
> > and it was reiterated by Greg in his insightful e-mail.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeffrey J. Neuman
> > Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Konstantinos Komaitis [mailto:k.komaitis@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:27 AM
> > To: Gomes, Chuck; Neuman, Jeff; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Gregory Shatan; 
> > gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx; 'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx'
> > Subject: Re: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I am speaking without being present in yesterday's meeting so I can only 
> > comment on what I am reading from the email thread. Although I do 
> > appreciate the argument that the official GAC position has not changed 
> > (meaning there is not a follow-up 'official' letter from Heather asking for 
> > a change of course) the fact that we heard various GAC members expressing 
> > reservations and the potential implications of such protections should 
> > certainly be taken on board. This is significant as it manifests that the 
> > GAC might not be speaking as one voice in this issue; at the very minimum, 
> > these are new considerations that the DT should take on board.
> >
> > At the same time, we certainly cannot underestimate the letter that came 
> > from the OECD. What appeared to be just a possibility, it now appears that 
> > it is very likely that once the protections for these two orgs are set, 
> > more will come and use it as a precedent to get the same amount of 
> > protection. and, one could easily argue that there is potentially a more 
> > valid claim for these orgs to have their names protected than the IOC or 
> > the Red Cross. Are we really suggesting here that the work of the IOC, for 
> > instance, is more important or valuable than that of UNESCO or WIPO?
> >
> > I am quite surprised with the insistence to approach this issue the same 
> > way we have been approaching it, even in light of these new developments, 
> > which I believe are significant.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Konstantinos
> >
> > From: Chuck Gomes <cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 13:54:34 +0000
> > To: Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>>, 
> > Wolfgang Kleinwächter 
> > <wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>,
> >  Gregory Shatan <GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:GShatan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>, 
> > "gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>" 
> > <gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>>, 
> > "'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>'" 
> > <council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that we would need another letter from Heather requesting a 
> > change of direction before we would consider changing course.  We have 
> > based our work from the letter sent us stating the GAC request so until she 
> > as chair states that the GAC has changed their request, we should only rely 
> > on the official request we have.  On a side note, I would be very bothered 
> > if the GAC changed their request significantly after we had gone to all the 
> > effort we have to be responsive to their request and would like to think 
> > they wouldn't do that.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx> 
> > [mailto:owner-gnso-iocrc- dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of 
> > Neuman, Jeff
> > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:36 AM
> > To: '"Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"'; 'Shatan, Gregory S.'; 'gnso-iocrc- 
> > dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dt@xxxxxxxxx>'; 
> > 'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:'council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>'
> > Subject: RE: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC I do not think that this 
> > is a wise way forward.  We cannot allow what a very few members of the GAC 
> > say during an open meeting to detract from our overall position and 
> > recommendations.  I got a full briefing on the GAC discussion yesterday and 
> > do not believe we need to change course.
> > We should only change our course if during today's discussion between the 
> > GAC and GNSO necessitate the need to do so.  It is really not fair for us 
> > to base our actions on what a very small minority of the GAC members state. 
> >  It would be like another group changing their course on what only a few 
> > few Councilors state.  GAC members, like Councilors, are diverse.  Simply 
> > because a small percentage of Councilors feel one way and express their 
> > views, that may not impact the view of the COuncil as a whole.
> > Sent with Good (www.good.com)
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"
> > [mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 05:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > To: Shatan, Gregory S.; Neuman, Jeff; 
> > gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-iocrc-dt@xxxxxxxxx>;
> > council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:council@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: AW: [gnso-iocrc-dt] FW: Session on IOC/RC
> > Greogry:
> > I hope that the OECD and other intergovernmental organizations can 
> > understand the accurate picture of the "criteria" we considered and 
> > reconsider the statements below.  While we should welcome their input, a 
> > discussion that is based on a mischaracterization is only going to be a 
> > dead end.
> > Wolfgang:
> > This is the point. We "hope" that the OECD and other IGOs will understand. 
> > What happens if they don`t? In yesterdays GAC meeting (I was there) it 
> > became clear that there is no consensus among the GAC members. While Susan 
> > and Marc defended the position they gave us in the joint meeting, other GAC 
> > members introduced a broader view and disagreed partly with the US and the 
> > UK. The European Commission  was outspoken in calling similar rights for 
> > IGOs. I respect when Susan and Marc argue, our governments are members of 
> > those organisations and the UK and the US government will not support any 
> > attempt by an IGO to call for specific rights to have the name protected in 
> > all variations (as the "four" red organisations have done this now with 
> > 100+ words and combination of words) But what will happen if the UK and the 
> > US do not have a majority in this IGO? My warning yesterday was that I see 
> > a risk that we are pulled into an endless debate over who is in a "unique 
> > position" and gets sp!
> ec!
> >  ial rights and who is not. Chuck yesterday already recognized that there 
> > "could" be also a third organisaiton similar to the IOC and IRC.
> > And what happens if there "could" be first five organisations arguing that 
> > they are "unique" and than 50?
> > To avoid this and to react in a constructive way to the GAC/Board letters 
> > my proposal is to have very general language to strengthen the protection 
> > of names of such organisations (as IOC and IGOs) but not to mention any 
> > single organisation by name. BTW, the existing mechanisms for the 
> > protection of those names which are already in the guidebook (as early 
> > warning and others), are in my eyes sufficient enough to prevent any misuse 
> > by third parties. I do not believe that a cybersquatter will risk 
> > 200.000.00 USD to start a battle with the IOC or the IRC etc. And if the 
> > International Oceanographic Commission of UNESCO would go for .ioc they 
> > would probably consult in advance with the Olympic Committee (the other IOC 
> > is an intergovernmental treaty organisation). So it seems to me that we are 
> > in a rather theoretical debate. Lets be pragmatic and say, this is what we 
> > do for the first phase. We will review this in the light of experiences 
> > with the first phase and will come back with!
>   a!
> >  dditional language (if the existing dispute resolution mechnisms - which 
> > has not yet been tested - demonstrate too much weaknesses). And BTW this is 
> > only for the Top Level. The second level is a different issue and we will 
> > come back to the second level (where is no urgency) later.
> > To be consistent with our position so far we can argue that yesterdays 
> > discussion within the GAC has triggered a debate within the GNSO to rethink 
> > its approach. We have in the previous months trusted UK and US and followed 
> > the GAC letter but we learned yesterday that there is no real consensus 
> > among the GAC members themselves which affects obviously also our approach. 
> > And we should not underestimate the OECD argument.
> > And even more if you go to the letter Steve Crocker has written to the
> > 49 member states of the African Union and read the arguments of Steve, why 
> > he rejects a special proteciton of "africa" in its variations, than we 
> > should try to be also consistent with positions taken by the chair of the 
> > board. As an African Union member state  I would raise the issue why a 
> > non-governmental Committee gets special rights and why ICANN rejects this 
> > to the lagrest intergovenrmental body in Africa? Again whe should avoid to 
> > become be pulled into such an endless chain of controver!
> >  sial discussions.
> > Thank you.
> > Wolfgang
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  
>  
>  
>  
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