Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

[Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi James,

excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this 
is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. 
Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it 
can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and 
current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process 
for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better 
relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a 
recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership 
issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,

Volker


> Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the 
> various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar 
> can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the 
> registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they 
> were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name 
> pre-transfer.  If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated 
> the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is 
> a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be 
> at-risk.  But we should avoid any process where a registrar is 
> compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- 
> be forced to pay for the proceedings.
> Thanks—
>
> J.
>
>
>
> From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx>>
> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>" 
> <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
> hi Volker,
>
> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in 
> violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to 
> transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process 
> in a dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight 
> in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was 
> launched.
> i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
> position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to 
> leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on 
> Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler 
> one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm 
> not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation 
> where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no 
> recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the 
> > TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is 
> > not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an 
> > access in the first place.
> > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to 
> > initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another 
> > story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant 
> > to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this 
> > service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
> > Volker
> >
> >
> > > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence 
> > > "give registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the 
> > > intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that 
> > > process by their registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal 
> > > mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on 
> > > whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting the bar for that 
> > > appeal pretty high.
> > >
> > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann 
> > > <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > > > I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process 
> > > > dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed 
> > > > to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer 
> > > > dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and 
> > > > registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will 
> > > > result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
> > > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be 
> > > > sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and 
> > > > if necessary invoke the current process.
> > > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process 
> > > > between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of 
> > > > a domain name makes sense.
> > > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music 
> > > > should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to 
> > > > be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with 
> > > > the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in 
> > > > that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the 
> > > > respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
> > > > Volker
> > > > > Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process 
> > > > > in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
> > > > >  *
> > > > >
> > > > >     In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve
> > > > >     matters between themselves
> > > > >
> > > > >     In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant
> > > > >     as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the
> > > > >     registrant to take the issue to Compliance
> > > > >
> > > > >     Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into
> > > > >     the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
> > > > >
> > > > >     If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal,
> > > > >     with fees paid by registrars, as normal
> > > > >
> > > > >     If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off
> > > > >     to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com 
> > > > > <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, 
> > > > > Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> > > >
> > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > > >
> > > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > > - Rechtsabteilung -
> > > >
> > > > Key-Systems GmbH
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> > > >
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> > > > --------------------------------------------
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> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > > - legal department -
> > > >
> > > > Key-Systems GmbH
> > > > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > > > 66386 St. Ingbert
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> >
> > --
> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - Rechtsabteilung -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Web:www.key-systems.net  /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com  
> > /www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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> >
> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu  
> >
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> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - legal department -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
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> > /www.BrandShelter.com
> >
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> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu  
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> LinkedIn, etc.)

--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the 
author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.