[gnso-review-dt] MP3 recording GNSO Review Working Party teleconference 16th September 2015 14:00UTC

[Nathalie Peregrine <nathalie.peregrine@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear All,

Please find the MP3 recording of the GNSO Review Working Party teleconference 
held on Wednesday, 16 September 2015 at 14:00 UTC:  
http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-review-16sep15-en.mp3<http://mailer.samanage.com/wf/click?upn=NrFWbrBstcrPWP369qgbqlXiSKeL20xnUXzI03ZqpsvX-2FjWcml3uVD44bGMje4TTanBpwN7aciQ0kuQnhlO9dg-3D-3D_QuA5zZR9ZZ7J1F2FeF-2FOsgm1hgIDcBrAX2P7Ezxmql7ckJc4ios1-2BxObAoz2rzLSI3c4QB1NGo7bw7XrBjpRCbz74w4vzk48UxZMFoBBQBQaQ0ePdiOjdJ30sQNHkokOf-2F2p-2FBvMgKvMhzp-2B4u8fP-2BRrSytHe2KCf2HpQmtSbpezMgNTUG57PiORAPesOotpHA-2BC4pSmXJRsVmpbNaLqzpJ0hHWSwmLAQWyUKNjD8rHUI4jQ8V1XO4-2FOzyUaS26MZLJbswUFT3DzlAsEUwlYuQPdrnEqC-2BinVM1YrUCIZ8wOqW55j9QTlSk22LyONtR4BMRioyetdKHlvupidljmSG8leKw-2BmukQWk-2FbBig5OlAyDCbaEEDb2bwLt53wM7Q7-2B-2BmbBl8tuKB-2BOrUlweZnSxVxLXND9odpl0apPByalMnXjNVK-2F16PPllRYBumP2dXYzPEp6-2BoI-2BvQeDaL-2F-2B4u4qnRXRFHuINYrPgWFvBcVEkkRv8tnXetzkYIuCOs-2Bryo>

 On page:

<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#mar>http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#s<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep >ep<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep >
 <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep >



 The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master 
Calendar page:

http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/



Attendees:

Jennifer Wolfe

Klaus Stoll

Chuck Gomes

Avri Doria

Bill Drake

Rafik Dammak

Arun Sukumar
Robin Gross
Edward Morris
Osvaldo Novoa
Stefania Milan

Observer: Amr Elsadr


Apologies:

none



Guest Speakers:

Richard Westlake

Colin Jackson



ICANN Staff:

Mary Wong

Marika Konings

Lars Hoffman

Larisa Gurnick

Charla Shambley

Karen Mulberry

Nathalie Peregrine



** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Thank you.
Kind regards,

Nathalie



Adobe Chat transcript:

 Nathalie  Peregrine:Dear all, Welcome to the GNSO Review Working Party on the 
16 September 2015

  Amr Elsadr:Hi..., I am no longer a member of the working party. I hope it's 
alright that I am participating in today's call.
  Jen Wolfe:Yes, of course you are welcome to join!
  Amr Elsadr:Thanks Jen.
  Chuck Gomes:Sorry I am late.  Connectivity problems.
  Nathalie  Peregrine:Stefania Milan has joined he call
  Chuck Gomes:Should we hold our questions until later?
  Chuck Gomes:I have a question re. Rec. 23
  Jen Wolfe:Let's hold questions until Richard finishes his presentation and 
then we can start the questions.
  Avri Doria:Would RySG Interenst Groups be counted as Cs?
  Avri Doria:Or is 23 only aimed solely at the NCSG?
  Larisa Gurnick:The document Richard is referencing will be available for 
display and will be posted on the wiki shortly.
  Bill Drake:much of this content comes out of the blue
  Robin Gross:not exactly a bottom-up process at work here.
  Bill Drake:We never heard of it
  Avri Doria:a parting 'surprise'
  Amr Elsadr:[QUESTION] Apart from rec #23, why wasn't the WP involved in 
reviewing any of the public comments? Wouldn't have been helpful for Westlake 
to have representatives of the community being involved in the public comment 
review, similar to GNSO working groups?
  Avri Doria:So Westlake is suggesting we unwind the last SG reforms.
  Bill Drake:inter alia
  Chuck Gomes:It seems so Avri.
  Avri Doria:They CSG refused to accept the last reform.  I guess they picked 
correctly?
  Avri Doria:NCSg must learn from the CSG.
  Larisa Gurnick:A  GNSO Review Working Party meeting originally scheduled for 
July and then rescheduled for early August was cancelled due to low 
participation.
  Bill Drake:apparently we must adopt the CSG model
  Avri Doria:or we musr follw their example and refuse
  Avri Doria:.
  Bill Drake:and stop pretending there is something called civil society in 
ICANN
  Amr Elsadr:@Avri: Is it an option for the NCSG to not accept the review? Last 
time, the review was initiated by the GNSO. Not so this time, correct?
  Robin Gross:This is shockingly wrong.
  Avri Doria:hey the CSG refused last time.  And it worked for them.
  Robin Gross:Westlake seems to fundamentally misunderstand the GNSO model.  
That's a big problem.
  Bill Drake:and history
  Bill Drake:reality
  Bill Drake:CS
  Avri Doria:hey if i was a subtype or Registry, i would demand a constituency 
now.
  Arun Sukumar:Hi, it's concerning that terms like "cultural diversity" have 
been so loosely applied to justify Rec #23 - and this is from someone who 
cannot agree more on the importance of regiona/geo diversity
  Nathalie  Peregrine:Osvaldo Novoa has joined the call
  Amr Elsadr:Completely agree with Chuck, and this could have not been "missed" 
if the WP members were involved in the public comments review.
  Bill Drake:that is a fundamentally flawed argument
  Robin Gross:The breakdown in the non-contracted parties house is EQUAL seats 
to the commercial and non-commercial stakeholders.  It is NOT about 
constituencies.  Westlake has failed to understand this key point.
  Bill Drake:people don't join a constituency because it has Council seats
  Avri Doria:so many thing that might infringe the politeness rule are on the 
tip of my fingers.
  Avri Doria:Bill, some do.  for that and for travel support.
  Bill Drake:well maybe. not us
  Amr Elsadr:@Chuck: +1
  Robin Gross:Agree with Chuck.
  Robin Gross:what is the point in engaging with actual stakeholders, if 
Westlake is unwilling to learn about its mistakes?  What are we here for?
  Bill Drake:total misconstruction
  Avri Doria:In the NCSG, getting seats requires running for elections, and the 
'other C' did not put up any candidates.  that is one way to not end up with 
seats.
  Nathalie  Peregrine:Klaus Stoll has joined the call
  Klaus Stoll:Sorry to be so late. technical problems.
  Chuck Gomes:How would Council seats be allocated equally by constituency?
  Avri Doria:everytime a new constituency is formed you subdivide the votes 
n-ways.
  Amr Elsadr:Sure.
  Robin Gross:Thanks, Bill, for expressing many of our frustrations with this 
sandbagging.
  Avri Doria:it this is accepted, i will go into the business of helping people 
start constituencies.  the more the merrier.
  Chuck Gomes:@ Richard:  What is equal footing?
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 1: "board agreed, 
based upon evidence from the NCSG". The Board conducted an independent 
evaluation of the Cyber Cafe application. Please cite your fact the advice was 
based upon NCSG advice.
  Avri Doria:we need 7 constituencies
  Robin Gross:NCSG operates as a stakeholder group.  That is different than 
CSG, which is the constituency model.  Westlake needs to understand this key 
issue.
  Bill Drake:let's break up NCUC into 15 constituencies and demand Council 
seats for each
  Avri Doria:and the last review mandated stakeholder groups.  we complied.
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 2: "a former Chair 
and current NCSG Executiv Committee member". This refers to Milton Mueller, who 
is an EX OFFICIO participant of  the NCUC EC. He is not a voting member of the 
EC.
  Robin Gross:The logic of Westlake's argument would lead to breaking NCUC into 
15 constituencies to demand seats, indeed.  It is so NOT THOUGHT THROUGH....
  Avri Doria:2.5 people per seat?
  Bill Drake:Even the SIC understood the problem in 2011, that's why they 
didn't do it
  Avri Doria:it is a pity, becasue it colors some of the good recommendations.
  Bill Drake:Reality doesn't matter Amr
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 3: "in practice, the 
NCUC's view has largely won out". THere is no NCUC view on constituency vs. 
stakeholder group powers.. There is a diversity of views within the NCUC. I , 
for example, are far more Constituency friendly than the unelected ex-officio 
cited in the study.
  Avri Doria:and in the NCSG election none of the other constituency even pput 
up candidates.  how do they expect to get elected.
  Chuck Gomes:@ Jenn: We as a working team may want to  develop a statement to 
the SIC regarding Rec. 23.
  Robin Gross:This is an example of how ICANN staff uses independent 
contractors to do its dirty work (and bypas a bottom-up process).
  Jen Wolfe:Agree, that's what we can discuss after we finish up on this point.
  Avri Doria:and we should carefully review aall the other recommendations for 
other fault lines.
  Bill Drake:@Chuck I believe a team statement would be in order
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Factual error number 4: "Only one NPOC 
member has ever held a position on the GNSO Council". Not true. Carlos 
Guttierez (2015-2016) and Klaus Stoll (2013-2014) are both GNSO Councilors that 
are NPOC members.
  Bill Drake:Facts smacts
  Amr Elsadr:Constituency members vote along with everybody else. Saying that 
constituencies don't have a voice is not accurate.
  Chuck Gomes:I think we should be cautious about blaming staff for this 
outcome.  If that indeed happened that would be bad but we don't know that that 
happened.
  Bill Drake:presumably since Council seats drives membership growth then there 
should have been growth spurts in the period of those two Councilors
  Avri Doria:Carlos is a NCA, though member of NPOC, he was not elected by NCSG.
  Avri Doria:Klaus was the only NPOC who ran and got a seat.  i think he was 
the one one who ran.
  Amr Elsadr:Klaus ran, but was ultimately appointed by the NCSG PC.
  Avri Doria:... the only one to run ..
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):True Avri but Westlake states that only 
one NPOC member has ever served on Council. THat simply is incorrect.
  Robin Gross:Question: How much are these recommendations costing ICANN 
(Internet users)?
  Amr Elsadr:Other NPOC members who served on the council include Carlos, 
Debbie and Amber.
  Chuck Gomes:Rec. 23 is the only rec. I had a significant concern with.
  Avri Doria:true.  just trying to be precise with the facts.  Something I 
think is useful in this sort of review.
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):@Robin. I asked for ICANN to release the 
contract. THey released small portions but would not divulge anything in terms 
of cost.
  Amr Elsadr:Debbie and Amber were (if I am not mistaken) appointed by the 
board.
  Amr Elsadr:Carlos appointed by the NomCom.
  Bill Drake:there is no traffic on their mail list, perhaps because there are 
no members to send it
  Chuck Gomes:Any statement that the Working Party develops should be submitted 
to the OEC  before 28 Sep.
  Amr Elsadr:Fully agree with Rafik.
  Bill Drake:do I really have to learn to say OEC instead of SIC?
  Amr Elsadr:@Chuck: Would a statement by the WP be a sort of review and 
comment on the Westlake report? Can the WP pull this off on such short notice?
  Chuck Gomes:@ Bill: I had to think twice before figuring out what OEC was.
  Avri Doria:the committee formerly know as SIC
  Amr Elsadr:"the committee formerly know as SIC". I like that. :)
  Bill Drake:Organizational Effectiveness on parade here
  Bill Drake:this is just wrong
  Avri Doria:tis was less a GNSO review that a NCSG review
  Arun Sukumar:Well said, Rafik. I'm a new entrant to NCSG, and geographical 
diversity in ICANN is a big concern, but the sheer number of participants in 
the NCSG elections from all parts of  the world was overwhelming.
  Bill Drake:please look at the website and see who are members are
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):NCUC has 1) more and 2) larger members 
than NPOC.
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):From the Heritage Foundation to the ACLU 
to EFF...
  Avri Doria:it is too late. they are done.  time for us to figure out how to 
repsond.
  Bill Drake:some are small, some are large, we explained this in our last 10 
page corrective letter
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Many NPOC organizations exist ONLY on 
paper.
  Bill Drake:utter nonsense
  Arun Sukumar:@richard: this is a hypothesis right? there is a weighted voting 
system
  Klaus Stoll 2:Please let me know which! I resent rumors without facts.
  Robin Gross:Westlake just doesn't understand how things work.  This is a 
competency problem.
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):NCUC member the American Civil Liberties 
Union has 565,000 members. One NCUC member.
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Will do Klaus.
  Bill Drake:they don't count Ed
  Klaus Stoll 2:Thanks!
  Bill Drake:EFF doesn't count
  Bill Drake:CDT doesnt count
  Bill Drake:and so on
  Robin Gross:APC is pretty big.  Library of Alexandria is pretty big.  
RedCross is in NCUC too.  What does it take for Westlake to have a revised view?
  Edward Morris (GNSO Council / NCSG):Heritage?
  Robin Gross:Westlake has no criteria.  This is purely subjective nonsense.
  Chuck Gomes:I think we need a Working Party call as soon as possible to work 
on a plan to develop a response to the Recs.
  Chuck Gomes:In my opinion, it would be sufficient to focus on Rec. 23.
  Avri Doria:btw, another NCUC memebr APC, the organization I am representing 
is composed of 46 other grassroot organizations.
  Bill Drake:+1 Chuck just what we all need right now
  Bill Drake:Avri for that to matter one would have to know something about the 
groups being characterized
  Bill Drake:time no, commitment yes
  Chuck Gomes:Well said Bill.  :)
  Rafik:yes
  Bill Drake:thank you Jen for managing this well
  Robin Gross:What is the cost of these recommendations?  Or is that a secret?
  Bill Drake:it is a secret Robin
  Amr Elsadr:@Bill: +1. Thanks Jen, and appreciate being allowed to participate 
and speak today.
  Chuck Gomes:It is unfortunate that all the good work that Westlake did is 
being overshadowed by one rec.
  Robin Gross:I don't have audio, but I'd like my question answered.
  Bill Drake:good value for registrant money
  Arun Sukumar:thanks all for this illuminating call
  Larisa Gurnick:The cost is a contractual matter.
  Bill Drake::-)
  Robin Gross:does that mean it is a secret, Larisa?
  Rafik:what is the cost of volunteers time
  Bill Drake:going to encourage my undergrads to bid on ICANN contracts
  Chuck Gomes:Thanks all.
  Amr Elsadr:Thanks all. Bye.
  Larisa Gurnick:Thank you all
  Rafik:bye
  Robin Gross:no answer to my question on what we are paying for these 
recommendations.
  Avri Doria:thanks. bye. glad thsi part is over.