Re: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] a modest amendment to our charter point on "privacy and data protection"

["Mike O'Connor" <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>]

hi Susan,

what??  too much emaill??  i loved Fadi's comment this morning on that topic…  
:-)

anyhow, here are the two versions:

the current language;

Impact on privacy and data protection: how would ‘thick’ Whois affect privacy 
and data protection, also taking into account the involvement of different 
jurisdictions with different laws and legislation with regard to data privacy 
as well as possible cross border transfers of registrant data?

here's Avri's revised proposal;

Impact on rights: how would ‘thick’ Whois specifically affect internationally 
agreed rights, e.g. rights of others, privacy, freedoms such as expression and 
association, as well as adherence to data protection regulations, taking into 
account the involvement of different jurisdictions with different laws and 
legislation with regard to data privacy as well as possible cross border 
transfers of registrant data?

hope this helps,

mikey


On Oct 16, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@xxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Mikey, 
> 
> For clarity, can you post to the thread the language that is currently
> agreed upon in the charter that Avri would like to replace with this new
> language?  Sorry to ask you to do this but with the volume of email during
> a meeting I cannot seem to locate it.
> 
> 
> I am leaning toward this being to broad and I agree with you that we may
> be treading into the WG responsibilities but to be fair I would like to
> compare the two paragraphs.
> 
> 
> 
> Susan Kawaguchi
> Domain Name Manager
> Facebook Legal Dept.
> 
> Phone - 650 485-6064
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/15/12 9:25 PM, "Mike O'Connor" <mike@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> i am cautious about this idea.  it seems to me that we run the risk of
>> massive scope increase if we interpret the rights/jurisdiction
>> conversation as one that has to address *all* thick registries (existing
>> and new) in addition to the those issues in the *transition* of a thin
>> registry to thick.  i think it's appropriate to have an "effects of
>> transition from thin to thick" conversation (and i'm growing more
>> comfortable that either version of the language will work for that), but
>> i need a lot of convincing when it comes to the "every
>> registry/registrar/registrant" scope definition.
>> 
>> this thread is also starting to border on *doing* the work of the WG
>> rather than just *defining* the work of the WG.  i'm weighing in because
>> of the scope issue that i think this raises, but i'm also trying to leave
>> the "real work" until the WG is formed.   so let's try to stick to
>> revising charter language and leave analysis for another day.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> mikey
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 15, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> In sense though ww will also be talking about how thick whois is to be
>>> done by all registries.
>>> Both in the new gTLDs and the incumbents, even those already doing
>>> thick.  
>>> So this affects every Registry, every Registrar and every Registrant.
>>> 
>>> And there are, in my view, jurisdictional implications in Thick Whois
>>> that are different from Thin Whois.  Most of these center around the
>>> fact that once the Registry also has the Whois info as opposed to just
>>> the Registrar, people in Canada, e.g., no longer have the data privacy,
>>> consumer etc rights they have in Canada, because someone can base
>>> demands etc on the laws of the Registry's country of business as well.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> avri
>>> 
>>> On 14 Oct 2012, at 07:38, Jonathan Zuck wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Of course those same countries have consumer protection laws, the
>>>> enforcement of which rely on identifying the offender. The _use_ of the
>>>> data should certainly be subject to national law but the collection and
>>>> verification is necessary as a baseline. That said, I don't believe
>>>> THIS PDP is a referendum on Thick Whois but more of a discussion on
>>>> parity amongst registries, the rest of whom have implemented it.  I
>>>> think it will be difficult to make a "rights" argument that only .COM
>>>> and .NET should have thin whois.  The notion of thick whois was
>>>> discussed a great deal in the context of the guidebook and it can
>>>> certainly be discussed again but it doesn't seem to me that this
>>>> limited PDP is the place to discuss it.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:31 PM
>>>> To: Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx DT
>>>> Cc: Joy Liddicoat
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] a modest amendment to our charter
>>>> point on "privacy and data protection"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> hi,
>>>> 
>>>> Some are international law not aspirational at all.
>>>> And it is time ICANN, which wishes to operate on the International
>>>> stage, starts to give some respect and adherence to these laws.
>>>> 
>>>> avri
>>>> 
>>>> On 13 Oct 2012, at 16:26, Jonathan Zuck wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> With few exceptions, these are aspirational, which cannot be our
>>>>> mandate. We can certainly discuss impact on "legally established
>>>>> rights."  I think it would be far more productive, and helpful,
>>>>> however,  to frame the discussion in terms of relative protections.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2012, at 4:10 PM, "Avri Doria" <avri@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 13 Oct 2012, at 15:11, Hoover, Carolyn wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Avri,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Are these the 3 rights described in some place where the
>>>>>>> description 
>>>>>>> is generally accepted as valid?  In other words, would the working
>>>>>>> group have to define these or has this already been done?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are varied sources.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As In anything defined in International Law, there are various
>>>>>> sources.  Yet that facts does not lessen the importance of
>>>>>> considering them.  We may decide at some point that there is isn't an
>>>>>> impact, but the question needs to be asked.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is just a quick accumulation of references.  We can certainly
>>>>>> undertake to produce a set of quotes from International sources that
>>>>>> implicitly give the definition.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The rights are defined in several International covenants.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From the Universal Declaration of Human rights
>>>>>> <http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 19.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this
>>>>>> right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to
>>>>>> seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and
>>>>>> regardless of frontiers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 17.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in
>>>>>> association with others.
>>>>>> * (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 20.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and
>>>>>> association.
>>>>>> * (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From the  Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
>>>>>> <http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm>  (this one is binding
>>>>>> on 
>>>>>> the countries that singed it)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 17
>>>>>> 1. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference
>>>>>> with his privacy, family, or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks
>>>>>> on his honour and reputation.
>>>>>> 2. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such
>>>>>> interference or attacks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 19:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this
>>>>>> right 
>>>>>> shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and
>>>>>> ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in
>>>>>> writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media
>>>>>> of his choice.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Article 22:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of association with
>>>>>> others, including the right to form and join trade unions for the
>>>>>> protection of his interests.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 3. Nothing in this article shall authorize States Parties to the
>>>>>> International Labour Organisation Convention of 1948 concerning
>>>>>> Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organize to
>>>>>> take legislative measures which would prejudice, or to apply the law
>>>>>> in such a manner as to prejudice, the guarantees provided for in
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> Convention
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Other references can be found in various national instruments:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> e.g United States Bill of Rights, European Convention on Human
>>>>>> Rights and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Freedom of association is often know as Freedom of Assembly
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the IGF, a coalistions defined them qas:
>>>>>> <http://irpcharter.org/campaign/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 4) EXPRESSION AND ASSOCIATION
>>>>>> Everyone has the right to seek, receive, and impart information
>>>>>> freely on the Internet without censorship or other interference.
>>>>>> Everyone also has the right to associate freely through and on the
>>>>>> Internet, for social, political, cultural or other purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 5) PRIVACY AND DATA PROTECTION
>>>>>> Everyone has the right to privacy online. This includes freedom from
>>>>>> surveillance, the right to use encryption, and the right to online
>>>>>> anonymity. Everyone also has the right to data protection, including
>>>>>> control over personal data collection, retention, processing,
>>>>>> disposal and disclosure.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE:
>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>> 
>> 
> 


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