Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] missing recommendation in 7.1

[Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Of course, scheduling being as it is, the wee hours of the morning are 
easier to plan out. However, for many of us, the most productive 
meetings run until the early morning hours as well. Having that extra 
1,5 hours for catching some shut-eye usually results in better quality 
participation...
;-)

Volker

> I would actually like to counter that: it is almost impossible to schedule
> a WG F2F meeting during the 'normal' hours of an ICANN meeting as there
> are so many conflicting events going on, meaning that hardly anyone is
> able to attend. Turnout during breakfast sessions has been fairly good and
> resulted in productive WG sessions (after enough coffee was served ;-) I
> know early morning is not ideal, but there seem to be few alternatives
> (unless people prefer to have a F2F meeting at the end of the day?).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marika
>
> On 20/09/13 14:58, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Fully agreed. Working Group meetings at such times are a pain and
> > probably part of the reason participation of the community is more
> > limited than it could be.
> >
> > Volker
> >
> > > > (Note to ICANN: I like programs that begin at 10 a.m.)
> > > As do I, maybe even 9am. In any event, while I will likely be in Buenos
> > > Aires I would not be able to make any meeting that starts prior to 9am,
> > > and requiring WGs to meet at 7:30am is ridiculous.
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 19, 2013, at 12:37 PM, "Don Blumenthal" <dblumenthal@xxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Interesting idea. I wrote my note saying that a legal review would be
> > > > more useful than a policy one before I saw it. Really.
> > > >
> > > > I'm at a conference and today's sessions are about to start (Note to
> > > > ICANN: I like programs that begin at 10 a.m.). I have some questions
> > > > about the  idea of an independent review that I need to ponder during
> > > > breaks and boring presentations.
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Volker Greimann
> > > > <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > > > Date: Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:14 AM
> > > > To: Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx<mailto:avri@xxxxxxx>>
> > > > Cc: Thick Thin PDP
> > > > <gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] missing recommendation in 7.1
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I still find Avri's proposed language too broad, so I tried my hand at
> > > > a quick rewrite. Probably still needs a little fiddling, but more in
> > > > the direction what I could support, although putting this into 7.1 is a
> > > > bit iffy to me.
> > > >
> > > > The WG discussed many of the issues involved in moving from having a
> > > > registration currently governed under the privacy rules by one
> > > > jurisdiction in a thin whois to another jurisdiction, the jurisdiction
> > > > of the Registry in a thick whois.  The WG did not feel it was competent
> > > > to reach a final conclusion on these issues involving international
> > > > privacy laws. The Working group therefore makes the following
> > > > recommendation:
> > > >
> > > > . We recommend that the ICANN Board request an independent legal
> > > > review to be undertaken on the privacy implications of a transfer of
> > > > registrant data between jurisdictions.
> > > >
> > > > Reasons: If we could not find ourselves competent to decide a small
> > > > matter like the transfer of private data, how can we expect another PDP
> > > > to tackle an even broader issue of privacy issues surrounding WHOIS in
> > > > general? For the purposes of this WG, the determination that we were
> > > > unable to reach a final conclusion on could and should be resolved by
> > > > independent counsel.
> > > >
> > > > While a new PDP on WHOIS and privacy issues is certainly something
> > > > worth considering and something I would welcome, I do not feel that
> > > > this WG needs to make that recommendation as it would be much broader
> > > > than the smaller issue we were tasked to tackle.
> > > >
> > > > Volker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > For me this needs to be a Recommendation (7.1, big R), not an extra
> > > > consideration.  This issue was within the purview of the group and the
> > > > group bailed on it for lack of capability.  Fine, then lets step and
> > > > recommend that those that have the capability do so.    In this age of
> > > > world attention on privacy issues, I can't beleive we are still dancing
> > > > around the point.
> > > >
> > > > I am currently working on getting the NCSG to endorse this.  As the
> > > > alternate chair of the NCSG Policy committee I beleive this is
> > > > something that will be supported by the NCSG.  I will personally submit
> > > > a minority position and work to get the NCSG to endorse it, if this
> > > > recommendation is not included in 7.1.  For myself at this point, I
> > > > will reject the entire report without this, as the report is incomplete
> > > > without this as a primary Recommendation.  To my mind NCSG would be
> > > > shirking it responsibilities if we let this report go out without such
> > > > a recommendation.
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally, my impression from the list discussion was that there
> > > > was support, but that wording needed changing.  It was changed.
> > > >
> > > > I understand that there are those who may be playing divide and
> > > > conquer games behind the scenes, claiming that my position will hurt
> > > > NCSG's reputation.  I have bcc'e d the NCSG on this note so that they
> > > > themselves can determine if it is reputation damaging.  There are
> > > > others who are are cynically claiming that I am going against the
> > > > bottom-up model by insisting on privacy considerations.  I reject those
> > > > claims.
> > > >
> > > > avri
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 19 Sep 2013, at 10:25, Mike O'Connor wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hi all,
> > > >
> > > > i may have been the culprit here.  Avri, my interpretation of the
> > > > desultory conversation on the list was that there *wasn't* much support
> > > > for the idea.  and then when you didn't show up on last week's call to
> > > > pitch/push it, i forgot to bring it up.  my bad -- sorry about that.
> > > >
> > > > let's try to have a vigorous conversation about this on the list, and
> > > > drive to a conclusion on the call next week.
> > > >
> > > > Avri, you and i had a one-to-one email exchange about this and i
> > > > suggested that this recommendation might fit better, and be more widely
> > > > accepted, if it was in the privacy and data protection part of our
> > > > report (Section 7.3).  could you give us an indication of whether
> > > > acceptance of this version of the recommendation is required?  in more
> > > > casual terms, is there any wiggle room here?  i think it would be
> > > > helpful for the rest of the group to know the framework for the
> > > > conversation.
> > > >
> > > > carry on folks,
> > > >
> > > > mikey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 18, 2013, at 6:39 PM, Avri Doria
> > > > <avri@xxxxxxx><mailto:avri@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I was disappointed to not see the recommendation for the Issues report
> > > > included in 7.1.    I thought we had discussed it on this list and thee
> > > > had been little opposition, though there was some.  I cannot support
> > > > this report with a strong recommendation for follow on work on the
> > > > Privacy issues.  And, contrary to what others may beleive, I do not see
> > > > any such work currently ongoing in ICANN.  I think it i s unfortunate
> > > > that we keep pushing off this work and are not willing to face it
> > > > directly.  I beleive I have the support of others in the NCSG, though
> > > > the content of a minority statement has yet to be decided on.
> > > >
> > > > While still somewhat inadequate, I am ready to argue for going along
> > > > with consensus on this document if the following is included in 7.1:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The WG  discussed many of the issues involved in moving from having a
> > > > registration currently governed under the privacy rules by one
> > > > jurisdiction in a thick whois to another jurisdiction, the jurisdiction
> > > > of the Registry in a thick whois.  The WG did not feel it was competent
> > > > to fully discuss these privacy issues and was not able to fully
> > > > separate the privacy issues involved in such a move from the general
> > > > privacy issues that need to be resolved in Whois.  there was also
> > > > concern with intersection with other related Privacy issues that ICANN
> > > > currently needs to work on.  The Working group therefore makes the
> > > > following recommendation:
> > > >
> > > > . We recommend that the ICANN Board request a GNSO issues report to
> > > > cover the issue of Privacy as related to WHOIS and other related GNSO
> > > > policies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > avri
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB:
> > > > www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for
> > > > Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> > > >
> > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > > >
> > > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > > - Rechtsabteilung -
> > > >
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> > > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > > - legal department -
> > > >
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> > --
> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - Rechtsabteilung -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
> > us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - legal department -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> >
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
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