[gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] MP3 THICK WHOIS - Tuesday 24 September 2013

[Nathalie Peregrine <nathalie.peregrine@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear All,

The next  Thick Whois PDP Working Group call will be held on Tuesday 01 October 
2013 at 1400 UTC.

Please find the MP3 recording of the Thick Whois PDP Working Group call held on 
Tuesday 24 September 2013 at 14:00 UTC at:

http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-thick-whois-20130924-en.mp3


On page:  
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#<http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#<http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#<http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#mars>apr>sep

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master 
Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/


Attendees:
Amr Elsadr - NCSG
Carolyn Hoover - RySG
Steve Metalitz - IPC
Mikey O'Connor - ISPCP
Marie-Laure Lemineur - NPOC
Roy Balleste - NCUC
Chris George - IPC
Marc Anderson - RySG
Avri Doria - NCSG
Tim Ruiz - RrSG

Apologies:
Susan Prosser - RrSG
Frederic Guillemaut - RrSG
Don Blumenthal - RySG
Alan Greenberg - ALAC


ICANN staff:
Marika Konings
Lars Hoffmann
Berry Cobb
Glen de St Gery
Nathalie Peregrine

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Mailing list archives:
http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg/

Wiki page:
https://community.icann.org/x/whgQAg

Thank you.
Kind regards,
Nathalie Peregrine
For GNSO Secretariat

Adobe Chat Transcript for 24 September 2013:

Marika Konings:Welcome to Thick Whois WG Meeting of 24 September 2013

  steve metalitz:my mike is not working so I will phone in

  Amr Elsadr:Hi, dialling in.

  steve metalitz:waiting for coordinator

  steve metalitz:yes i can hear you

  Nathalie  Peregrine:I have informed the operator

  Amr Elsadr:@Steve..., same here. It's becoming a trend lately.

  Nathalie  Peregrine:All microphopnes can now be enabled in the AC room

  Nathalie  Peregrine:Here is a problem with the service provider

  Amr Elsadr:Just joined the call.

  Amr Elsadr:Please do. Thnx.

  Amr Elsadr:Thnx for the recap Mikey.

  Marika Konings:Avri, you are cutting out

  Chris George:I'm on the call and it keeps breaking up  Is it just my line

  Avri Doria:To be plain I am against thick whois without equal protection for 
privacy.

  Avri Doria:that requires a 7.1 Requirements

  Avri Doria:but i will defer to my NCSG collegues

  Tim Ruiz:FWIW, just an observation, my personal hope is that one day only 
organizations are required to have public whois data, and no individuals 
whatsoever.  Unfortunately, that is likely not to happen in my lifetime.

  Avri Doria:i am against limiting the Policy Recommentation to transition, but 
think it must include the nature of the privacy threat under thick - becasue 
only if we understand that, do we understand the transitional problem

  Roy Balleste:Not to put anybody on the sport, but would like to hear where 
VeriSign stands.

  Avri Doria:Well what if the legal review showed that it increased liability 
for ICANN under privacy regualtions?

  Amr Elsadr:That's a good question..., and what's the purpose of a post 
implementation legal review?

  Avri Doria:If we force  a change, tand then ooops, discover that we have 
imposed protection regualtion liability on ICANN.  What will we do?

  Avri Doria:We found that there were no diffrences, or compentent 
international lega found that there were no.  I thought we did not have a  
competency to decide of what the international threats were?

  Avri Doria:threats == differences for those who dot believe Thick Whois is a 
privacy threat.

  Avri Doria:Will there also be legal liabilty on registrars for transfering 
this private information to an international database?

  Marika Konings:Isn't the information already publicly posted, even in a thin 
model?

  Avri Doria:Mariak, maybe, it may also be behind a privacy wall.

  Marika Konings:In the current environment, all registrars are required to 
publish registrant info, both in a thick or thin model, no?

  steve metalitz:@Roy -- isn't ICANN a multi-stakeholder body?

  Avri Doria:well some of that info is behind a priavy preotection, which we 
allow.  if the information is transfered ofshore, that is the first instance of 
the information being allowed outside the jurisdiction of the thin.

  Roy Balleste:I mean, the decison should not be made by ICANN staff.

  Avri Doria:So, we can be certain that some information will be made public 
that was not public before.  And if the rgistries dont' have the same privacy 
protections as the registrars, that is even further hguaranteed.  Definately an 
apparent liability there.

  Roy Balleste:I mean ICANN staff alone.

  Marika Konings:Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding was that in 
the thick model the information is shared that is also publicly available at 
the registrar level, not what is held by privacy / proxy services.

  Avri Doria:We have no rules on how to treat privacy protections.

  Avri Doria:and privacy arangements ar elargely with the affiliates of 
registrars.  But even if display s the same, hidden information is trasfered to 
a diffeent jurisdiction.

  Avri Doria:it is a) possibly made public, b) is moved to a different 
jursidiction that may have different privacy services rules.

  steve metalitz:I believe Marika is correct.

  Avri Doria:i bleeive she might not be.

  Avri Doria:and the real point, do we have authoritative information and legal 
opions on this?

  Avri Doria:I assume it is undisputed that the information will be under a 
different jursodiction - which may mean it is moved to a jurisdiction with 
loewer privacy protection.

  Avri Doria:Also there are no ICANn rules about privacy services, so how can 
we determine for sure that dispalys will remain the same?

  Marika Konings:@Avri - I am assuming that registrars / registries have 
authoritative information on this quesiton as they are providing / receiving 
the information ;-)

  Avri Doria:Marika, that is quite an assumption.

  Amr Elsadr:Hand down. +1 @Tim. That's what I wanted to point out.

  Marika Konings:@Tim - doesn't that already apply then to all thick gTLDs, 
including new gTLDs?

  steve metalitz:How many registrars only sponsor registrations in thin 
registries?  All others have been addressing this question for up to 10-15 
years.

  Amr Elsadr:Yes..., but it hasn't been studied. All we're asking is a closer 
look in order to make a more informed decision.

  Amr Elsadr:..., and hopefully address the rights of registrants in the 
process.

  Avri Doria:hiddne information behind a privacy service wall

  Avri Doria:i am not disagreeing with Tim about the jurisdictional problem, i 
am saying there actually is other  hidden data behind privacy walls, and the 
ules for those walls will vary from registrar to registry and from country to 
country.

  Marika Konings:@Avri - but that information is not affected by a transfer 
from thin to thick.

  Avri Doria:yes it is.

  Avri Doria:the info is transfered to a area with different privacy service 
rules and avaialbility

  Don Blumenthal:The "whats" of  data elements are factual things we can lock 
down before our final report.

  Avri Doria:i am just ointing out that we do not know what the legal issues 
are becasue we did not get legal opinion

  Avri Doria:opposed without equal legal protection for privacy

  Don Blumenthal:Before the final draft report

  Roy Balleste:+1 tim

  Amr Elsadr:I got disconnected. Dialling back in.

  Roy Balleste:Indeed, we only made modifications to the language of the 
recommendation.

  Roy Balleste:Avove all, experts in privacy and data protection.

  Don Blumenthal:Agree with Marika. A legal review is just that. One of the 
problems in the privacy debates is the misinformation about what, for example, 
the DPD is and isn't.

  Tim Ruiz:I think it says exactly what Marika just said it should say, doesn't 
it?

  Amr Elsadr:I got disconnected again. :(

  steve metalitz:Staff should be consulting with GAC to get the views of 
"regulators"

  Don Blumenthal:The GAC among others.

  Tim Ruiz:@Steve, that is one option the General Counsel's office could 
explore in "consulting" with national and int'l regulators.

  Carolyn Hoover:Sorry - I have to leave to go to another meeting.

  Tim Ruiz:Where does Verisign stand on all of this - Virginia and California 
;-)

  Roy Balleste:Funny :)

  steve metalitz: @Amr, appreciate your statement.

  Amr Elsadr:Thnx Steve.

  Roy Balleste:Good meeting!

  Roy Balleste:Thank you!

  Amr Elsadr:Thnx everyone.

  marie-laure lemineur:bye thks

  Tim Ruiz:Thanks Mikey!