Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] in preparation for the call tomorrow

[Rick Wesson <rick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Don,

Don't ask me to prove negatives, we don't do that in ICANN nor the IETF.
Has anyone asked ICANN or possible the legal team at PIR if it was
considered. Not knowing is understandable, not asking is a different matter.

If I recall correctly the PIR legal team still attends ICANN functions, and
their board might remember as well. If I recall correctly Lynn St. Amour,
ISOC Liaison (N. America) was heavily involved and continues to represent
ISOC, which cares about privacy. Did anyone ask her?

-rick


On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@xxxxxxx>wrote:

>  As has been discussed on the list and in the privacy subteam report,, we
> don't know whether the question was answered when .org transitioned. I
> could not find any sign that data protection was considered at the time,
> and no subsequent complaints does not mean that no issues existed. In
> addition, the cross jurisdictional data transfer landscape has changed
> significantly in the last ten years.
>
>  Don
>
>   From: Rick Wesson <Rick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Monday, October 14, 2013 2:38 PM
> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: Michael O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>, Thick Thin PDP <
> gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] in preparation for the call tomorrow
>
>   Was this question not answered with the .ORG transfer? As our charter
> specifically asks us to detail such?
>
>  -rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Volker Greimann <
> vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>  Rich,
>>
>> I think you are arguing a different issue here. The only issue we (and
>> therefore the legal review) need to be concerned with is the rights of the
>> parties listed in the whois in their own private details and how they may
>> be affected in a move of their data from whereever they are stored now to
>> the US, not third party rights. This is a greatly reduced scope from whe
>> indeed lunatic scenario you depict.
>>
>> Questions that need to be answered are:
>> Do the general registration terms of most registrars cover such a move? I
>> would argue they do already for any registrar I have seen.
>> What are the data protection requirements that the registry operator must
>> meet prior to being able to receive the data?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>    Mike,
>>
>>  Having spent some time in the IETF I find it hard to apply those rules
>> you outlined belwo, here. Our consensus is not about technical issues.
>>
>>  Take for instance, the idea that a public record being published in
>> jurisdiction A is now published (publicly) in jurisdiction B and a third
>> party takes issue with the move, though this 3rd party has no relationship
>> to the domain, registrant, nor registrar A or B. Finally a 4th party takes
>> issue with the rights the 3rd party might have should the publishing of
>> this record change from A to B that they incest that ICANN review all 209
>> international laws on privacy and show how the 3rd party might be effected
>> should A or B land in any one of those places -- and provide a report to
>> the GNSO describing the 3rd parties effected rights.
>>
>>  In the IETF we would have ignored such lunacy, because its not
>> technical. someone from the working group, probably the chair, would have
>> sat these folks down and asked them to focus one a more productive side of
>> the problems at hand. A good chair probably would have pushed for a binary
>> answer to the issue at hand. So that those consuming our work product would
>> have an answer -- preferably in binary.
>>
>>  Since this is not the IETF, we might check our charter, which makes no
>> mention of rough consensus though many of the terms you defined are defined
>> at http://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/thick-whois-charter-08oct12-en.pdf
>>
>>  Finally, I'd like to point out that the IETF way you suggested is
>> orthoginal to the designations in our charter and I advise you remind the
>> working group of the charter and to follow those rules we have agreed to.
>>
>>  -rick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> hi all,
>>>
>>>  i've been reflecting on where we're at and have arrived at two key
>>> words i want us to focus on in preparation for the call tomorrow --
>>> "objections" and "precision"
>>>
>>>  we've heard back from the General Counsel that they would like to see
>>> more precision in our request for a legal review.  i wrote a response on
>>> the spur of the moment that i'm regretting now.
>>>
>>>  homework assignment:  try to come up with language that clarifies what
>>> we are asking the GC to do, and also come up with language that limits the
>>> scope of that effort to something that is achievable within reasonable time
>>> and budget.
>>>
>>>  i'm feeling the need to draw this part of the conversation to a close
>>> and am hoping that we can get this last visit to the privacy issue
>>> completed on the call tomorrow.  if, at the end of the call, we still are
>>> not there, i'm going to ask the group's permission to go off and do the
>>> duty of the Chair, which is to reflect on the state of our work with the
>>> following structure in mind.
>>>
>>>  IETF - Consensus
>>>
>>>      Credo
>>>
>>>          Do's
>>>             decisions are made by (more or less) consent of all
>>> participants
>>>             the actual products of engineering trump theoretical designs
>>>
>>>          Don'ts
>>>             we don't let a single individual make the decisions
>>>             nor do we let the majority dictate decisions
>>>             nor do we allow decisions to be made in a vacuum without
>>> practical experience
>>>
>>>          Require rough, not full consensus
>>>             If the chair of a working group determines that a technical
>>> issue brought forward by an objector has been truly considered by the
>>> working group, and
>>>             the working group has made an informed decision that the
>>> objection has been answered or is not enough of a technical problem to
>>> prevent moving forward,
>>>             the chair can declare that there is rough consensus to go
>>> forward, the objection notwithstanding.
>>>
>>>      Lack of disagreement is more important than agreement
>>>     _determining_ consensus and _coming to_ consensus are different
>>> things than _having_ consensus
>>>         Consensus is not when everyone is happy and agrees that the
>>> chosen solution is the best one
>>>         Consensus is when everyone is sufficiently satisfied with the
>>> chosen solution, such that they no longer have specific objections to it
>>>         Engineering always involves a set of tradeoffs.  It is almost
>>> certain that any time engineering choices need to be made, there will be
>>> options that appeal to some people that are not appealing to some others.
>>>  The key is to separate those choices that are simply unappealing from
>>> those that are truly problematic.
>>>
>>>
>>>  this outline is lifted from an IETF draft which seems like a good
>>> guideline.  the full draft can be found here.
>>>
>>>  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-resnick-on-consensus-05
>>>
>>>  this is why i want us to focus on "objections" and "precision" on our
>>> call.
>>>
>>>  mikey
>>>
>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE:
>>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
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>> Volker A. Greimann
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