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Re: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Definition V4.2: concern about "consumer-grade"

  • To: "Mike O'Connor" <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • Subject: Re: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Definition V4.2: concern about "consumer-grade"
  • From: Eric Brunner-Williams <ebw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:34:34 -0400


Mike,

Best use of time, not fight or flight. The distance between observers and contractual parties is simply too great, so a synthesis of views would simply present a significantly incomplete picture to the Council, probably at the expense of some non-contractual parties as well.

See Mike R's note.

Eric

Mike O'Connor wrote:
an observation -- in any conflict, we're always making the choice between "fight" or "flight." some of us fight first, and then flight. some of us flight first and fight if folks run after us and box us in. much misunderstanding happens when those things mix.

i'm proposing a third option. take a breath... maybe a walk... and stay in the game. we need you in here with us. we need the clash of all ideas because that's how we learn.

if we were in meat space, i'd propose a beer together...

please stay.

m

At 12:46 PM 8/1/2008, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:

Mike,

I'm happy to continue separately, and I don't think a less responsible engagement to the purposes of the PDP will result from two efforts.

Eric

Mike O'Connor wrote:

ahem.

a fella finishes up a phone call, breaks for lunch, is just drifting off for the Afternoon Nap when a fistfight breaks out on the list.

Eric, a gentle reminder -- let's keep the discussion civil here. this last post was a little outside the limit.

how's a geezer to get his rest, otherwise?  :-)

m

At 11:49 AM 8/1/2008, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:

is this for my benefit joe, or are you just spouting off?

if it is for my benefit, then you have to be addressing the assertion, mine, that autonomous system is less determinitive of risk than whether the network attached device is a microsoft operating system product, and therefore a poor substitute, if the root cause is not to be ignored.

reputation has been discussed more than once on nanog, which i know even if you don't.

hold the "regards", i prefer real ones over what's available.


Joe St Sauver wrote:
Eric mentioned:

#Further, using AS as determinative is vastly less accurate to the root #problem than using if-MS-then-NO as a gating mechanism, regardless of #how much corporate chrome there is on the AS and its commercial #operations. Since I don't think people want to go down the #if-MS-then-obvious-conclusion path, the AS-is-guilty false equivalent #should be dismissed.

In general, ASNs do accumulate reputation, just as domains accumulate
reputation, and just as netblocks accumulate reputation. One particularly notorious example of this from recent years would probably be the "RBN"
case, although there are others.
The real value of ASN-based reputation accumulation, however, is that:

-- there are relatively few ASNs (at least until 4 byte ASNs get
   widely deployed)

-- it is possible to mechanically and scalably map IP's to ASNs

-- if you route a network block, you also have the option of not routing all or part of that block (e.g., there is a connection between an ASN associated with an activity, and the ability to control that
   activity)

Most ASNs live somewhere on the vast continuum rightward of clean-as-
the-driven-snow and leftward of dirty-as-a-deep-rock-coal-miner-at-
end-of-shift, although there are some AS's that truly do anchor the
extremities of that scale. (Arguably, a trivial example of a "100% guilty ASN" is one that has been hijacked, for example.)

Regards,

Joe




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