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Re: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim Conclusions and Next Steps

  • To: Greg Aaron <gaaron@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, Randy Vaughn <RL_Vaughn@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • Subject: Re: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim Conclusions and Next Steps
  • From: Dave Piscitello <dave.piscitello@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:54:02 -0700

To be clear, I said "meet the false-positive criteria that are set". I think
zero false positive (100% accuracy) is an impractical accuracy objective. A
practical false positive rate ought to be based on risk, liability, as much
as technology.

If registries set zero false positive as the criteria, then I suspect they
will have human examination (which could also make an error).

On 6/3/09 10:23 AM  Jun 3, 2009, "Greg Aaron" <gaaron@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I have seen false-positives come out of two different, expertly created
> fast-flux detection systems.  If left unexamined by a human, those systems'
> results could have led to the suspension of legitimate Web sites.  As we
> have discussed (ad infinitum) in the FFWG, the false-positive rate can get
> gotten down quite low, but when it comes to taking down domains, one wants
> to be very careful.
> All best,
> --Greg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RL Vaughn [mailto:rl_vaughn@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:40 AM
> To: Dave Piscitello
> Cc: Rod Rasmussen; icann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fast flux fast flux
> Subject: Re: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim Conclusions and
> Next Steps
> Dave Piscitello wrote:
>> The only comment I'd make is that "any" is rather open ended and suggests
>> that there is a zero probability of automation that would achieve a
>> satisfactory false-positive percentage.  In credit card and other fraud
>> detection situations, automation does meet the false-positive criteria
> that
>> are set. Would folks object to saying "known automated techniques require
>> human interpretation"?
> Actually, no automated detection mechanism, including credit card fraud
> detection, achieves a zero false positive percentage and requires human
> intervention.  Your mileage may vary, one of my credit-card issuers
> is capable of whitelisting a card for brief international sojourns although
> this whitelisting does, indeed, require human intervention.
> This is the long academic way of saying I don't really object to
> the phrase.
>> On 6/3/09 4:43 AM  Jun 3, 2009, "Rod Rasmussen"
>> <rod.rasmussen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> I think Mike has done a good job of cleaning up some stuff here, but
>>> may have some more controversial deletes - nothing I see as a show
>>> stopper, but should be discussed.
>>> I have a couple of thoughts to add in here.
>>> In conclusions, I think we had an important consensus that, "any
>>> automated technique for detecting fast flux domains requires human
>>> interpretation of the results and examination of the evidence to
>>> confirm the presence of malicious or proscribed activities."
>>> I would also add this thought to conclusions - perhaps right after
>>> Mike's comment about a neutral third party for determination of a
>>> malicious FFLUX domain:
>>> Such a process could be devised to detect malicious FFLUX domains,
>>> however, those domains would still require some form of mitigation in
>>> order to end or prevent the undesired activity.  Depending on the
>>> nature of the fluxing configuration, many disparate providers could
>>> potentially be involved, from a domain registry or registrar, to DNS
>>> or hosting service providers.  The working group reached no consensus
>>> on which party or parties would be best suited to handle such
>>> mitigation work, but notes that in practical terms, such mitigations
>>> are already occurring in practice, but in an uncoordinated, uneven, or
>>> even arbitrary manner.  Some proposals do exist for creating a
>>> balanced process across-the-board for handling malicious domain
>>> registrations in general and merit further consideration for potential
>>> solutions to this particular issue.  <This last sentence may be better
>>> in the recommendations section>.
>>> In the recommendations section, I think we should definitely point out
>>> that some domain name registries and registrars have already
>>> implemented contractual language that addresses the issue, and that is
>>> another way to attack the problem.  (no specific text here - just a
>>> thought extension that we need to cover, and there are a few places
>>> that could be added).
>>> Also, please excuse the bit of APWG self-serving here, but I would
>>> point out that a specific mitigation framework has been proposed
>>> for .ASIA (and now others) in conjunction with the APWG that would
>>> allow for quick mitigation of malicious FFLUX domains and could be
>>> looked at as a general model for incident handling.
>>> OK, please don't shoot me for a "new" thought here, but one role that
>>> ICANN could take on is the "best practices facilitator".  The idea
>>> being that ICANN (the formal company) keeps a current list of
>>> consensus-based best practices that could be used by various
>>> contracted parties, ensures that these are evangelized to those
>>> parties, and then does audits of if/how they are being used and
>>> reports findings based on those audits.  I'm just trying to think of
>>> ways to get past the old cliché of "everyone should follow best
>>> practices" and put some meaning/incentive to actually doing so.  I'm
>>> also trying to think of practical roles for ICANN itself to play in
>>> this.
>>> Best,
>>> Rod Rasmussen
>>> President and CTO
>>> Internet Identity
>>> 1 (253) 590-4088
>>> On Jun 2, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Mike Rodenbaugh wrote:
>>>> Hi Greg, that may depend on which version of Word you use, and what
>>>> view you
>>>> are in.  On my copy, my edits are in blue, James' in red.  When I
>>>> mouse over
>>>> the edits, it clearly shows who made them.
>>>> -Mike
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-gnso-ff-pdp-may08@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-ff-pdp-may08@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Aaron
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:54 AM
>>>> To: icann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'fast flux fast flux'
>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim
>>>> Conclusions and
>>>> Next Steps
>>>> Mike, I am not sure which edits are yours.  Can you give me an
>>>> example of
>>>> your changes, so I can distinguish them from the others?  I think
>>>> this doc
>>>> has edits by two or three hands?
>>>> All best,
>>>> --Greg
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Rodenbaugh [mailto:icann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:38 PM
>>>> To: 'fast flux fast flux'
>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim
>>>> Conclusions and
>>>> Next Steps
>>>> I have suggested edits to James rework of Secs 8/9, on attached.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Mike
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh
>>>> Rodenbaugh Law
>>>> 548 Market Street
>>>> San Francisco, CA  94104
>>>> +1.415.738.8087
>>>> www.rodenbaugh.com
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-gnso-ff-pdp-may08@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-ff-pdp-may08@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James M.
>>>> Bladel
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:40 PM
>>>> To: marika konings; fast flux fast flux
>>>> Subject: [gnso-ff-pdp-may08] Comment References, Interim Conclusions
>>>> and
>>>> Next Steps
>>>> Team:
>>>> Apologies for the delay on these materials.My schedule got away from
>>>> me
>>>> beginning on Thursday, and so this task was pushed to the weekend.
>>>> In any event, please find attached two separate documents.  The first
>>>> (spreadsheet) attaches references for the views of the WG on comments
>>>> received in response to the Initial Report.  Please note that these
>>>> are in
>>>> no way an attempt to re-categorize the comments.  Instead, the goal
>>>> is to
>>>> find the smallest number of sections / topics that sufficiently
>>>> address
>>>> -all- comments.  I have included some sample language for each topic
>>>> (needs
>>>> further word-smithing), which can be used individually or worked
>>>> into the
>>>> comment analysis summary.
>>>> Next, I have made many changes to section 8 ("Interim Conclusions")
>>>> and
>>>> section 9 ("Next Steps"). Please note that if you believe the text
>>>> does not
>>>> accurately characterize the WG findings, or if there are significant
>>>> omissions, we can work through these on our call next Wednesday.
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> J.

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