RE: [gnso-idng] RE: same string registered at 2nd level across different IDN gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]

["Tim Ruiz" <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

> What would be confusingly similar about .shop? 
> I can't see how the definition of confusingly 
> similar in the recommendations would apply to 
> .shop. In fact, I am not even sure what TLD you 
> think .shop would be similar to.

It all depends on how expansive the definition of confusingly similar
becomes, or is taken. I'm concerned that what goes for IDN will go for
ASCII, why not? In fact you said "It is important to note that the
confusingly similar issue does not just relate to existing registries
nor does it just relate to IDNs."

I agree, in ASCII .shop should not be considered confusing with any
existing gTLD. But considering some of the discussion on this thread
about what is confusingly similar it's in the realm of possibility that
since a "shop" is typically a commercial business or company both
VeriSign and Neustar could consider it a "variant" if taken too far.

In IDN it becomes even more likely. The possible variants claimed in a
specific language by distinct applicants could be the same string. For
example, in how many languages does "company" and "business" translate
into the same word - and possibly even shop (as a noun). There are other
complications - could the applicant of .shop claim variants based both
on its use as a noun and verb?

I'm not trying to imput motives, just pointing out that the definition
of confusingly similar has huge implications. Regardless of how well
intended anyone may be, some enterprising applicant will find all
possible opportunities to exploit it.

> I understand that some people may prefer to take
> advantage of the value of an already established
> brand but I personally do not think that is the
> best way to encourage competition. Do you 
> disagree with that?

Well, actually, that happens in business all the time. But my concern is
that that argument gets used by incumbents or applicants to push to far
the other way - claiming brand confusion when there really isn't any in
order to stiffle competition.
 
Tim 
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [gnso-idng] RE: same string registered at 2nd level across
different IDN gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
From: "Gomes, Chuck" <cgomes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, December 04, 2009 12:51 pm
To: "Tim Ruiz" <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx>

Tim,

There are a nearly unlimited number of strings available for new gTLDs
without taking advantage of an an existing brand. I understand that some
people may prefer to take advantage of the value of an already
established brand but I personally do not think that is the best way to
encourage competition. Do you disagree with that?

What would be confusingly similar about .shop? I can't see how the
definition of confusingly similar in the recommendations would apply to
.shop. In fact, I am not even sure what TLD you think .shop would be
similar to.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Ruiz
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:24 PM
> To: gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [gnso-idng] RE: same string registered at 2nd level 
> across different IDN gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
> 
> 
> So what does .com stand for anyway? Commercial, commerce, 
> communication, company?
> 
> I'm concerned about how far, incumbents especially, intend to 
> take this.
> Will Neustar object to .business? Will VeriSign object to 
> .shop? One of the primary reasons that ICANN has touted new 
> gTLDs is to increase competition and user choice. If every 
> possible *version* of a TLD, as I'm seeing it described in 
> this thread, is held by a single entity, how does that 
> promote competition?
> 
> Taking such an expansive view also sheds a different light on 
> the letter from the .SPORT PAC, dotSport LLC, and their 
> supporters, in which they claim rights to all sub-categories 
> of sports attempting to establish a new concept, the *apex* 
> TLD. They use many of the same arguments used in this thread 
> to support their assertions:
> http://www.icann.org/correspondence/baumann-to-dengate-thrush-
> 20aug09-en.pdf
> 
> IMHO, this is kind of thinking that will derail the whole 
> thing and/or cascade it into never ending lawsuits.
> 
> Tim 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: same string registered at 2nd level across 
> different IDN gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
> From: Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx>
> Date: Fri, December 04, 2009 10:43 am
> To: gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> And there I disagree. There is the basis for objection on a 
> broader basis then visual to some degree, but I do not see it 
> mandating the extent of the basis you are requiring. And the 
> extent of the broader basis is not strictly defined but 
> refers to many different possibilities under many different 
> legal regimes. I do not believe the intent of the council was 
> ever to give .com, in all of its possible translations, 
> homonyms, synonyms and transliterations in all 
> languages/scripts to Verisign, or .biz in all of its possible 
> translations, homonyms, synonyms and transliterations in all 
> languages/scripts to Neustar.
> 
> the ability that you are requiring:
> 
> - to exclude all others from any translation, 
> transliteration, aural similarity, synonym, or homonym 
> because of Confusing similarity
> + the ability to claim those for the incumbent because it isn't
> confusingly similar for you to have them
> 
> is the equivalent of preserving an incredibly wide swath of 
> names for the incumbents. I am certain that was not the 
> intent of the GNSO in its recommendations.
> 
> a.
> 
> 
> On 4 Dec 2009, at 15:50, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
> 
> > The detail supporting recommendation 2 clearly defines 
> confusingly similar in the broader sense and that detail is 
> part of the report that was approved by a super majority vote.
> > 
> > Also, please note that this does not only affect incumbents 
> but also new gTLD operators that want to apply for various 
> versions of their TLD, like the example I cited yesterday for .arab.
> > 
> > Chuck
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
> >> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:36 AM
> >> To: gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: same string registered at 2nd level across 
> different IDN 
> >> gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> Actually that is not the way I remember it. I remember it 
> as an issue 
> >> that went without full resolution and as one of the issue that was 
> >> punted to the staff to figure out - though were those on 
> both sides 
> >> of the argument the whole time. I do not think you can produce a 
> >> document or a decision that defines confusingly similar 
> the way want 
> >> to define it. You always insisted on Confusing similar meaning all 
> >> possible forms of similarity, but there never as a 
> consensus call on 
> >> that topic to my recollection. I was not alone in 
> objecting to such 
> >> an expansion of the term confusingly similar - there was much 
> >> discussion but no conclusion.
> >> 
> >> It is expansive in that if gives incumbent rights in all languages 
> >> and scripts that no one ever intended to give them, 
> especially if you 
> >> combine it with the current drive to give access to names to the 
> >> incumbents because when given to incumbents they are allegedly no 
> >> longer confusingly similar.
> >> 
> >> But it is not only expansive in that respect because there 
> are many 
> >> words in many languages that are synonyms and there are 
> many that are 
> >> homonyms, depending on how you pronounce them. Giving 
> incumbents the 
> >> ability to block all of those or claim them as is their wish, is 
> >> problematic. Again I am speaking personally, but I will 
> take the case 
> >> to the SG.
> >> 
> >> a.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 4 Dec 2009, at 14:34, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Avri,
> >>> 
> >>> There is nothing expansive about the definition of
> >> confusingly similar in the DAG or in what I have been 
> proposing. I am 
> >> aware that you were one individual who did not support it 
> at the time 
> >> but a supermajority of the Council supported the recommendations 
> >> including the detailed explanations behind them. What do 
> you see as 
> >> expansive?
> >>> 
> >>> Chuck
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
> >>>> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:48 AM
> >>>> To: gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: same string registered at 2nd level across
> >> different IDN
> >>>> gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> 
> >>>> I think that remains to be seen how extensive the support
> >> is for this
> >>>> expansive notion of confusingly similar.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I think this is an unfortunate change in the DAG and do
> >> not believe
> >>>> it was ever intended by the GNSO though it was argued by some. I 
> >>>> also believe it will cause great difficulties.
> >>>> 
> >>>> a.
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 4 Dec 2009, at 00:35, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Eric,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> We have already been down the path of the definition of
> >>>> confusingly similar. What is in the DAG now had strong support.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Chuck
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Eric Brunner-Williams [mailto:ebw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 6:29 PM
> >>>>>> To: Gomes, Chuck
> >>>>>> Cc: Stéphane Van Gelder; Edmon Chung; gnso-idng@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: same string registered at 2nd level across
> >>>> different IDN
> >>>>>> gTLDs [RE: [gnso-idng] rethinking IDN gTLDs]
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> That makes it (a) a good example of why "meaning" creates
> >>>> avoidable
> >>>>>> problems, as the two wouldn't form a contention set if visual 
> >>>>>> similarity was the test, and (b) not a hypothetical
> >>>>>> iso3166-1 maybe, but an actual gTLD IDN example, 
> though when of 
> >>>>>> course is TBD.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Thank you Tim. If all applications are considered
> >>>> independently, than
> >>>>>> if both strings resulted in independent contract
> >> formation, though
> >>>>>> with the same parties, then they would be severable, as
> >> they never
> >>>>>> really are joined.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> That's another reason why it pays to know
> >>>> (interdependency, such as
> >>>>>> same applicant) rather than not.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Eric
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> 
> 
>