[gnso-igo-ingo] MP3 IGO-INGO Protections Policy Development Process (PDP) Working Group - 23 January 2013

[Julia Charvolen <julia.charvolen@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear All,


The next call for the IGO-INGO Protections Policy Development Process (PDP) 
Working Group is scheduled on Wednesday 30 January at 19:00 UTC


Please find the MP3 recording of the IGO-INGO Protections Policy Development 
Process (PDP) Working Group  teleconference held on Wednesday 23 January 2013  
at 1900 UTC at:

http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-20130123-en.mp3

On page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#jan

 

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master 
Calendar page:

http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/


Attendees:
Lanre Ajayi - Nominating Committee Appointee
Iliya Bazlyankov – RrSG
Alain Berranger - NPOC
Jim Bikoff – IPC/IOC
Avri Doria – NCSG
Elizabeth Finberg - RySG
Chuck Gomes - RySG
Alan Greenberg - ALAC
Catherine Gribbin - Red Cross
Robin Gross - NCSG
Stephane Hankins - NCSG
David Heasley - IPC/IOC
Wolfgang Kleinwaechter - NCSG
Evan Lebovitch - ALAC
David Maher - RySG
Kiran Malancharuvil - IPC/IOC
Osvaldo Novoa - Red Cross
Christopher Rassi - Thomas Rickert - NCA
Thomas Rickert – NCA –Working group chair
Greg Shatan - IPC
Ken Stubbs - RySG
Claudia MacMaster Tamarit - ISO
Mary Wong - NCUC


Apology : 
Paul Diaz – RySG

 
ICANN Staff:
Brian Peck
Berry Cobb
Julia Charvolen
 

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Adobe Chat transcript  for 23 January 2013
Berry Cobb:Welcome to the 23 JAN 2013 IGO-INGO Conference Call.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):David Heasley is also on the call.
  Julia Charvolen:thank you I will note that
  Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all, sorry I'm late
  Berry Cobb:David Maher should be joining the call shortly.
  Berry Cobb:Osvaldo, you will be up next to talk to the ISP input statement.
  Osvaldo Novoa:I'm trying to connect by phone, I'm waiting on line
  Evan Leibovitch:hello all
  Osvaldo Novoa:I'm on line now
  Mary Wong:Tee hee, Thomas said "technical glitch" :)
  Chuck Gomes:Well said Avri
  David Mahe:I am trying to call in using Skype but can't connect.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:Did Thomas just go offline?
  Thomas Rickert:I am still there!
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:Sorry, I was just kicked off the call.
  Greg Shatan:Me too.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:Is there something wrong with the conference 
calling center?  Still on hold.
  Alan Greenberg:Perhaps hang up and try again
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:just got back!
  David Mahe:I'm now connected
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:Agree with Avri on multiple factors
  Alan Greenberg:@Avri. Well said.
  Evan Leibovitch:+1 Alan and Avri
  Alan Greenberg:Jim, could you put the 17,000 calculation in writing in an 
e-mail or this chat?
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):approx 950 new gTLDs x 2 words x 9 
languages
  Evan Leibovitch:Greg, nothing in Alan's work, on its own, appears to 
demonstrate fraud or abuse, in that none of the "squatted" sites appears to be 
misrepresenting themselves. If there are some specifics you can offer in this 
regard, pleas do.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Evan, do you view parked websites with 
advertisements as "misrepresentative"
  Evan Leibovitch:No.
  Evan Leibovitch:Unless they claim they are the organization
  Evan Leibovitch:"This domain is for sale" is, in fact, a clear sign that the 
site is NOT representative of the org
  Alan Greenberg:I and a lot of others would be delighted to get rid of parked, 
monetized web sites. But at the moment under curent policy, there is nothing to 
prohibit them.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Evan... you don't think they are 
unfairly and intentionally capitalizing on initial interest confusion
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):passing off
  Alan Greenberg:On questions to ask, I woul also like to see some measure of 
"user" use of the web site, but I am not sure exactly how to measure it.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):or other behaviour prohibited by law?
  Evan Leibovitch:If they don't represent themselves as being the org they are 
not passing off, IMO
  Mary Wong:As a fellow member of the Admissions team, I agree with Avri's 
distinction between Quals & Adm.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Interesting Evan. 
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Thanks for clarifying your position.
  Avri Doria:I also beleive we should give free electricty to public interst 
organzations.
  Greg Shatan:Initial interest confusion implies that the user has visited the 
parked and monetized site because they thought they were going to the "real" 
site.  I don't see how initial interest confusion is not implicated.
  Avri Doria:And they should go rent free.
  Evan Leibovitch:Greg: They were *lookin* for the real site. Landing at a 
squatted siite just meant that they landed at the wrong place, not that they 
were confused.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):initial interest confusion =/= actual 
confusion Evan
  Greg Shatan:We charge rent  and electricity to organizations because the 
providers incur costs in delivering the service or the space.  Where is the 
analogous cost here?
  Evan Leibovitch:A park page that does not represent itself as the org is 
neither passing off not necessarily a source of confusion
  Greg Shatan:The confusion may or may not be alleviated when they get there, 
but they got there because they experienced initial interest confusion.
  Evan Leibovitch:It *can* be, but that has to be demonstrated. It is neither 
implicit nor obvious
  Mary Wong:Hasn't initial interest confusion been doubted in some 
cases/Circuits in the US?
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Evan, why would someone park 
Olympic.whatever if they weren't attempting to make money on ads from the 
confusion of internet users? 
  Alan Greenberg:If there is policy (ICANN or otherwise) preventing 
monetization, someone is doing a VERY bad job at enforcement. My understand, 
which might be wrong, is that monetization with no pretence of masquerading at 
the original entity, is not forbidden. If I am wrong, I would be delighted to 
understand what the reality is.
  Chuck Gomes:Is monetization automactically disallowed in a UDRP case?
  Alan Greenberg:Chuck, I thought it was not if there is no attempt at 
mis-representation. BUt we have many tm laywers on this call...
  Alan Greenberg:Lawyers
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):You cannot use someone elses And yes, 
monetization of someone's trademark is automatically disallowed in a UDRP case 
and court action.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):*someone elses tm in that way
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):half my sentence disappeared!
  Mary Wong:Definition of "abuse" from the RAPWG 2010 final report: Abuse is an 
action that:a. Causes actual and substantial harm, or is a material predicate 
of such harm, andb. Is illegal or illegitimate, or is otherwise considered 
contrary to the intention and design of a stated legitimate purpose, if such 
purpose is disclosed.
  Osvaldo Novoa:Thomas, I agree with your statement
  Berry Cobb:Just to point out from RAPWG, there was no consenus on delination 
between Use Abuse and Registration Abuse.
  Alan Greenberg:Kiran/JIm, to be clear. If I have a domain name that is a typo 
or exact match that monetizes on the general area of business but do not claim 
any connection is actionable in a UDRP?
  Evan Leibovitch:"troublesome" is in the eye of the beholder
  wolfgang:Thanks Mary for the definitjon of abuse. Indeed, not everything is 
an abuse
  Mary Wong:@Berry, yes, that's why I focused on the definition only, which was 
a consensus position.
  Mary Wong:@Greg, I agree - content analysis would be inappropriate.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):@Alan - if you add "..a typo or exact 
match of a trademark..." then YES
  Evan Leibovitch:It is my view that Alan's wording closely reflects the ALAC 
approach to this issue
  Evan Leibovitch:There is substantial skepticism within At-Large of the 
claimed *public interest* harm asserted in the absense of the blocking measures 
being advocated by some.
  Evan Leibovitch:His request is simply a request to "prove it"/
  wolfgang:can somebody call me in again under *49-171-6324889. My battery went 
down on the other phone.
  Alan Greenberg:@KIran/Jim, sso Redcross.biz (I think Redcross in a TM in the 
US) would be taken down if a UDRP was filed?
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):I couldn't possibly speculate on a 
specific case.  I'm not a judge.
  Evan Leibovitch:But  you're agreeing that itś not obvious.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):No Evan, I'm not agreeing to that at 
all. 
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):I'm just being careful not to run afoul 
of the limitations of my license to practice law, by not offering advice on the 
outcome of a specific case.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):I would suggest that you review past 
UDRP cases and decisions to answer your questions.
  Alan Greenberg:Understood. But then perhaps the " if you add "..a typo or 
exact match of a trademark..." then YES" was a bit of overkill.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):nope.  because it has to be a trademark
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):you said a typo or exact match, but 
didn't say trademark
  Evan Leibovitch:what is the trademark is in a dictionary word such as "apple" 
or "tide" or "shell"?
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Again, I would refer you to past UDRP 
cases for guidance on specific issues rather than broad questions about causes 
of action.
  Alan Greenberg:OK, I will try to re-phrase. If a site TRADEMARK.biz is a 
monetized site that clearly is  pointing to subjects related to the trademark's 
business, but clearly is not claiming to be that orgaization, it would likely 
win a UDRP?
  Alan Greenberg:@Stephane, you have a lot of sympathy for the 
"strings-contained-in" scenario, but unfortunately (for you) that this is not 
what we are currently charged with.
  Greg Shatan:I don't think there is anything in the resolution that limits our 
considerations to exact matches.
  Kiran Malancharuvil/Jim Bikoff (IOC):Alan, IN GENERAL...  the trademark owner 
would win the UDRP in that case.
  Greg Shatan:What list?
  Avri Doria:Alan, the data we are looking for is actaully part of the solution.
  Alan Greenberg:Avri, it may help form the solution, but I would like to look 
at it and then decide what numbers are to be used.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit:Greg plus 1
  Avri Doria:to be clear some are looking for reservations of the type 
'%sRESERVEDNAME%s'?
  Avri Doria:or even  '%sRESERVEDNAME%sRESERVEDNAME%s'
  Alan Greenberg:@mary "Risky" - a rather mild word for the swamp we will be in 
if we look at wider than exact match.
  Alan Greenberg:Clearing houese is just a LARGE reserved names list...
  Mary Wong:@Alan, right - that's why my reasons are more than just based on 
our charter :)
  Chuck Gomes:Let's try to minimize longer statements
  Mary Wong:Thanks, Thomas - excellent steering and chairing, as usual.
  Chuck Gomes:Thanks Thomas