[gnso-igo-ingo] MP3 IGO INGO - Wednesday 18 September 2013

[Julia Charvolen <julia.charvolen@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear All,

The IGO-INGO Protections policy Development Process (PDP) Working Group 
scheduled for next week is CANCELLED. Notification will be sent out shortly for 
the next meeting time and date.


Please find the MP3 recording of the IGO-INGO Protections Policy Development 
Process (PDP) Working Group teleconference held on Wednesday,18 September 2013 
at 1600 UTC at:

http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-20130918-en.mp3

On page: 
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#<http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/#feb>sep

The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master 
Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/


Attendees:
Griffin Barnett – IPC/IOC
Jim Bikoff – IPC/IOC
Chuck Gomes – RySG
Catherine Gribbin – Red Cross Red Crescent
Stephane Hankins – Red Cross Red Crescent
Wolfgang Kleinwächter – NCSG
Evan Leibovitch - ALAC
David Heasley – IPC/IOC
Judd Lauter – IOC/IOC
Christopher Rassi – Red Cross Red Crescent
Greg Shatan – IPC
Claudia MacMaster Tamarit - ISO
Joanne Teng - WIPO
Berly Lelievre Acosta - WIPO

Apology:
Guilaine Fournet - IEC
Elizabeth Finberg – RySG
Alan Greenberg – ALAC
Ricardo Guilherme – RySG / UPU
Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP
Thomas Rickert – NCA –Working group chair
Avri Doria – NCSG
David Maher - RySG

ICANN Staff:
Berry Cobb
Mary Wong
Julia Charvolen

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Thank you.
Kind regards,
Julia Charvolen
For GNSO Secretariat

Adobe Chat Transcript 18 September 2013:
  Berry Cobb:Welcome to the 18 Sept 2013 IGO-INGO conference call.
  Chuck Gomes:Looks like we will have a small group today.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Indeed.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Certainly not, please do.
  Julia Charvolen:Catherine Gribbin joined the meeting
  Julia Charvolen:Evan Leibovitch joined the meeting
  Evan Leibovitch:Hi. I haven't been on many calls but have been participating 
by mail and involved in the ALAC response. Also, Alan can't be here on this 
call.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):We could support that.
  Julia Charvolen:Berly Lelievre-Acosta joined the call
  WIPO:I am here with my WIPO colleague Jo Teng.  Unfortunately, we will have 
to leave early tonight.
  Chuck Gomes:Thanks Claudia
  Julia Charvolen:Thank you, noted
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Thank you for the great solution.  It's fair 
and flexible.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):That's fine for us.
  Chuck Gomes:Is anyone on the call opposed to the approach I suggested?
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):No objections to the re-ordering from us.
  Evan Leibovitch:OK here
  wolfgang:@ Chuck. Fine for me
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):We would strongly oppose that.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):It changes the structure that different 
groups read the recommendation in.
  WIPO:The same footnote should be included in the IGO Recommendation Matrix
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):That's what we were thinking about.  If it's 
feasible.
  Julia Charvolen:Please mute your mic if you are not speaking
  wolfgang:Hi Folks, unfortunately I have th leave the CC within the next five 
minutes as already indicated earlier.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Plus one Chuck
  Evan Leibovitch:I agree with Chuck.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):And we just don't think there's time for that.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Noopposition from  us.
  Evan Leibovitch:Disagree with the WIPO objection
  Evan Leibovitch:It's not that we don't understand your position. We 
understand but disagree nonetheless
  wolfgang:Thanks for a good discussion and bye bye.  I have no fundamental 
comments but would insists to take note adequatly of Avris two minority 
positions
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):Sure, thanks.
  Evan Leibovitch:I support the change to "consensus against"  rather than 
"divergence in favour" where that conveys extra clarity.
  Greg Shatan:+1 to Evan.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):We support that Evan and Greg.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):You've said it far better than I, Greg.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):"Consensus against" works for us.
  WIPO:As indicated before, regarding General Recommendation 4, we believe it 
is more appropriate to keep the wording as is and call it divergence.  The fact 
is that the members of the Working Group provided comments to General 
Recommendation 4 as it is currently drafted and it would be ill-advised to 
change its wording at this late stage.  Considering the compilation of 
responses received from Working Group members, to invert the recommendation and 
then argue in favor of consensus is simply inappropriate.  In the Report, 
“Divergence” is defined as:  Divergence (also referred to as No Consensus) - a 
position where there isn't strong support for any particular position, but many 
(two or more) different points of view. Sometimes this is due to irreconcilable 
differences of opinion and sometimes it is due to the fact that no one has a 
particularly strong or convincing viewpoint, but the members of the group agree 
that it is worth listing the issue in the report nonetheless.
  Greg Shatan:I don't think "divergence" can be "in favor" or "against" 
anything.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):There is strong support against this 
recommendation.  And it's important to reflect that.
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):I agree fully with Greg.
  WIPO:We (WIPO, OECD and UPU) dont think it would be appropriate to say that 
there is ZERO support for General Recommendation 4.
  Evan Leibovitch:I'm not sure what the problem is. The WG has achieved 
Consensus .. to the inverse of the recommendation
  Evan Leibovitch:And if that means an extra bullet in the "Consensus Scale", 
so be it
  Mary Wong:Excerpt from the WG Guidelines: Strong support but significant 
opposition - a position where, while most of the group supports a 
recommendation, there are a significant number of those who do not support it. 
Divergence (also referred to as No Consensus) - a position where there isn't 
strong support for any particular position, but many different points of view. 
Sometimes this is due to irreconcilable differences of opinion and sometimes it 
is due to the fact that no one has a particularly strong or convincing 
viewpoint, but the members of the group agree that it is worth listing the 
issue in the report nonetheless.
  Evan Leibovitch:Under these, Divergence is INAPPROPRIATE for #4.
  Chuck Gomes:"consensus against" is not an option in the guidelines
  Greg Shatan:I don't think the intention is to set up a consensus scale where 
you can have wins (consensus, SSBSP) and ties (Divergence), but never losses.
  Evan Leibovitch:And yet that is the apparent result.
  Mary Wong:Minority View - refers to a proposal where a small number of people 
support the recommendation. This can happen in response to a Consensus, Strong 
support but significant opposition, and No Consensus; or, it can happen in 
cases where there is neither support nor opposition to a suggestion made by a 
small number of individuals.
  Evan Leibovitch:On reflection ... if it will get us past this impasee, I 
support Claudia's change to the recommendationi itself so that we can list 
Consensus.
  Greg Shatan:Agree with Evan and Claudia.
  Chuck Gomes:I can live with that.
  WIPO:WIPO, OECD and UPU strongly oppose to changing the wording of the 
Recommendation at this late stage
  Claudia MacMaster Tamarit (ISO):I'm sorry that I have to leave early.  Thank 
you Berry, Mary and Julia, and all working group colleagues.
  Evan Leibovitch:+++1 Greg
  Evan Leibovitch:NO FOOTNOTES
  Greg Shatan:I am referring to the WG definition of divergence, not the common 
definition.
  Evan Leibovitch:Change the recommendation or enable "Consensus against". 
Don't care which
  Greg Shatan:Are we going to end up with a Minority View from a Majority of 
the WG?  That would be absurd.
  Greg Shatan:That's not divergence; that's not what the guidelines state.
  Evan Leibovitch:There IS a Consensus, to the NEGATION of the recommendation.
  Greg Shatan:I think we are acting as slaves to the matrix.  The matrix is 
just a tool.  It needs to work for the group.
  Greg Shatan:We don't work for the matrix.
  Greg Shatan:Positive scale = There's only good news in ICANN land....
  Evan Leibovitch::-)
  Greg Shatan:Unsupported proposals never die, they just diverge....
  Mary Wong:Many zombies in ICANN-land, Greg? :)
  Greg Shatan:Maybe we should have a consensus call on what to put in the 
box....
  Evan Leibovitch:I'm OK with the changes. There appears no non-clumsy way to 
do this.
  WIPO:Thank you all.  We at WIPO really have to run now and look forward to 
continuing the discussion on the mailing list.
  Evan Leibovitch:Next week, Alan will probably be back ;-)
  Mary Wong:Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.
  Chuck Gomes:Thanks everyone.
  Greg Shatan:Thank you, all.
  Evan Leibovitch:A bientôt!
  Julia Charvolen:Aurevoir!
  Julia Charvolen::)