RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task - Councilor Training

["Ron Andruff" <randruff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Dear all,

The question of what is the SCI remit and what is not must always be
considered, but it should not be used as a tool to inhibit a broad
discussion around any issue that comes before us.  I don't think anyone on
this Committee is suggesting that we become a drafting team for the
suggested primer.  That is a matter to be taken up at Council level, in
response to our recommendations.

What is being said - and this goes to the point of Avri's post below - is
that training for new councilors is now an absolute must as ICANN matures.
The SCI cannot and must not ignore the importance of getting this training
element enshrined in the GNSO Council best practices to educate and ensure
that future Councilors do not find themselves ignorant of the ground rules
that govern their actions.  This is even more important, as Avri notes
below, for NCA appointees.

I won't opine on Avri's comments as to why this has yet to be put in place,
but I do feel strongly that it is time to get this sorted once and for all.
Therefore, I don't see any reason as to why the SCI should not make a
training/primer program for GNSO Councilors part of our recommendations to
Council in our response to the issue of re-voting a motion.

Kind regards,

RA

Ronald N. Andruff

RNA Partners, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:15 AM
To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task - Councilor Training


Hi,

Since I was first aded to the g-cpuncil way back when, people have talk
about training for new council members.  Glad to see that old ideas never
die.

- I think it is out of scope for this group.  We are responsible for looking
at the rules themselves.  Not how a council members becomes educated in
those rules. 

- I am sure that too many council members would be too busy or too
intelligent to bother taking the course or learn anything from them.  they
are not that hard or long to read and the staff has done a good job of
creating information pieces.  Anyone who is smart enough to be on the
council can learn the rules if they wish to learn the rules.  Plus except
for NCAs, any new council member have the senior council members form their
Constituency/SG to epxlain things to them form their C/SG's perspective.

- there is a major education effort elsewhere in ICANN.  It is bogged down
in politics, because no one can agree on the content and the identity of the
teachers.  We do not trust each other enough to allow someone from the other
side, or even staff, to do the teaching.

avri



On 15 Jan 2013, at 17:23, Ron Andruff wrote:

> Dear all,
>  
> I think that the concept of providing a new councilor primer is an
excellent idea and one that we should give more thought to.  Indeed, if all
new Councilors are provided with a briefing on their mandate, documents that
they should review, etc. that would serve the ICANN community and its
various constituencies well.  Moreover, a neutral presentation of
roles/responsibilities and what is expected of them, may go further to
assist new councilors in learning how to find consensus.  Something we can
all agree has been lacking in the trench warfare that we have seen in
Council over the years.
>  
> Thanks to Jennifer and Anne for bringing this idea forward.  Let’s explore
this further.
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
> RA
>  
> Ronald N. Andruff
> RNA Partners, Inc.
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Aikman-Scalese,
Anne
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:41 PM
> To: 'Alain Berranger'; Jen Wolfe
> Cc: Neuman, Jeff; Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx; avri@xxxxxxx;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>  
> Hi all,
> I find myself a bit more concerned about the possible effect of such a
rule on quashing motions for reconsideration.  There may even be changed
circumstances that might justify reconsideration and one would not want to
make a rule that no motion that has previously been voted upon can be
brought before the Council again. 
>  
> I also tend to wonder whether a Councilor, especially a newer Councilor,
laboring under a misimpression about the conflict of interest rules, might
not, in itself, constitute a changed circumstance.  Maybe I am less critical
because the Councilor in question is an IPC Councilor and also a very good
lawyer.  If he was confused about this, I consider it possible that anyone
might be.  So I tend to disagree that if the Councilor in question had been
NCSG, that there would have been a uproar about the change in vote (or at
least there shouldn't be in an ideal ICANN world).
>  
> There is an aspect of this which for me involves "Do unto others as you
would have others do unto you."  So it seems that if we say this is okay the
way it happened, the same leniency is given going forward to any Councilor
who labors under a misunderstanding of Council rules, subject perhaps to the
discretion of the Chair in bringing the motion again.
>  
> The harder line would be:  "Dear Councilor: You are responsible for
knowing all the rules before you vote and no misunderstanding on your part
as to any issue can serve as a basis for resubmission of a motion."  If we
go this route, new Councilors should definitely be trained accordingly.  Do
new GNSO Councilors receive training and orientation as is the norm for most
Boards?
> Anne
>  
> <image001.gif>Anne E. Aikman-Scalese
> Of Counsel
> Lewis and Roca LLP • Suite 700
> One South Church Avenue • Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611
> Tel (520) 629-4428 • Fax (520) 879-4725
> AAikman@xxxxxxxxx • www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman
> 
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original message.
>  
>  
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alain Berranger
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: Jen Wolfe
> Cc: Neuman, Jeff; Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx; avri@xxxxxxx;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> 
> Thanks Jennifer,
>  
> Common sense speaks again! The black belt argument will often close a
discussion, though!!!! ;-) Many involved with ICANN would likely benefit
from six sigma training... including myself!
>  
> Let's see what the Standing Committee on GNSO Improvements Implementation
I discussions will lead too.
>  
> Cheers, Alain
>  
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Jen Wolfe <jwolfe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>  
> I hope your new year is  off to a great start.  I know I am new to the
council and this committee so forgive me if I am misunderstanding our role,
but what confused me about this particular issue was that all of the
councilors had the opportunity for discussion, to ask questions and for
consensus.  A vote was taken and then a councilor asked further clarifying
questions and then wanted to change his vote.  From a strictly process
standpoint, I am not clear on why a new vote should be allowed once the time
for discussion and clarifying questions close.  In any other parliamentary
procedure, legislative body or corporate governance on boards, once a vote
is taken, that’s it, even if someone misunderstood something procedurally or
substantively.
>  
> I fully understand the need for consensus, but once discussion closes and
a vote is taken, from a process and procedural standpoint, it’s a slippery
slope to start allowing votes to be re-opened because one person asked a
clarifying question after the vote was taken.  It not only takes up valuable
time of the council in discussing new issues, but could be used
inappropriately in the future if this were permissible. 
>  
> I look forward to participating in this committee.  I have a black belt in
six sigma process improvement and pride myself on finding ways to function
more efficiently and hope I can provide meaningful contributions to this
committee. 
>  
> Have a great weekend!
>  
> JENNIFER C. WOLFE, ESQ., APR, SSBB
> MANAGING DIRECTOR, WOLFE DOMAIN, A DIGITAL BRAND STRATEGY ADIVSORY FIRM
> MANAGING PARTNER, WOLFE, SADLER, BREEN, MORASCH & COLBY, AN INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY LAW FIRM
> IAM 300 - TOP 300 GLOBAL IP STRATEGISTS 2011 & 2012
> Follow Me: <image005.gif> <image006.gif> <image007.gif>
> Blog: What will you do when your CEO asks why you didn’t apply for a gTLD?
> 
> Book: Domain Names Rewired
>  
>  
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:05 PM
> To: Alain Berranger; Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> 
> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>  
> All,
>  
> I am still missing the rationale as to why the NCSG representatives
believe this rule should be in place for a bottom-up consensus driven
organization.  
>  
> Please help me understand.
>  
> Jeffrey J. Neuman 
> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
> 
>  
> From: Alain Berranger [mailto:alain.berranger@xxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:01 PM
> To: Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx;
jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx; Neuman, Jeff
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>  
>  
> I agree fully with Mary's arguments.
>  
> Best, Alain
> 
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:16 PM, <Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Thanks, Jonathan and Jeff. As I won't be on the SCI call this week, my
view, FWIW, is that a motion that is properly introduced, seconded and voted
on should NOT be re-introduced (whether in its original form or tweaked) in
the absence of clear evidence indicating fraud, duress or other similar
circumstance surrounding the original introduction/seconding/vote in
relation to the motion. In this regard, Councilors' ignorance of the rules
(e.g. effect of an abstention), and lack of instruction/direction from a
Councilor's particular constituency/SG, should NOT count as the type of
circumstance that ought to permit a reintroduction or re-vote on what in
substance is the same motion.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Mary
> 
> Mary W S Wong
> Professor of Law
> Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
> Chair, Graduate IP Programs
> UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
> Two White Street
> Concord, NH 03301
> USA
> Email: mary.wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: 1-603-513-5143
> Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
> Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN)
at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
>  
> >>> "Jonathan Robinson" 01/10/13 1:12 AM >>>
> All,
>  
> My understanding of the role of the SCI is to determine how improvements
may be made for the future.
>  
> When the motion was re-submitted to the December meeting, I do not believe
that there was any procedure to guide the Council on the re-introduction of
a motion that had recently been voted on.
>  
> This specific issue has highlighted that we may need something to guide us
on this in future.  I do not believe that the SCI?s hands are tied at all.
>  
> We have one useful example which raised concerns and now need to look at
as general solution as possible for the future in order to cover both the
example that raised the concern and other cases which may occur in future.
>  
> Thanks,
>  
>  
> Jonathan
>  
> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Mary.Wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: 09 January 2013 16:58
> To: avri@xxxxxxx; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> Cc: jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx; Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
>  
> I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this
specific instance:
> 
> - the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on.
> 
> - just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were
not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should
be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of
something that was properly introduced and voted on.
> 
> - In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had
given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did
not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules,
and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to
discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion
(again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on).
> 
> - In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and
referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion
(without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI
before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are
somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through -
the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote
was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive
context within which ICANN is operating.
> 
> Cheers
> Mary
> 
> Mary W S Wong
> Professor of Law
> Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP
> Chair, Graduate IP Programs
> UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW
> Two White Street
> Concord, NH 03301
> USA
> Email: mary.wong@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Phone: 1-603-513-5143
> Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php
> Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN)
at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
> 
> >>> Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
> 
> Another thought experiment.
> 
> There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy
Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote,
some voters got confused and voted against.
> 
> Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote? 
> 
> Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just
reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps
even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote?
> 
> A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive
that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to
have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting?
> 
> avri
> 
> 
> On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be
reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on
reconsideration in the ByLaws. 
> > 
> > One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one
of those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it
was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
> > 
> > We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
> > 
> > avri
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
> > 
> >> I tend to agree,
> >> 
> >> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman@xxxxxxxxx>; 
> >> To: 'Avri Doria' <avri@xxxxxxx>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx>; 
> >> Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson@xxxxxxxxxxx>; 
> >> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task 
> >> Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Hi all,
> >> What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type
inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a
motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how
obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going
to discuss tomorrow.
> > 
> > the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
> > 
> >> 
> >> I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO
Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can
provide prior to our call.
> > 
> > It is all in the g-counci Procedures.
> > And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions
already made.
> > 
> > 
> >> 
> >> Thank you
> >> Anne
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Anne E. Aikman-Scalese
> >> Of Counsel
> >> Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700
> >> One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611
> >> Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725
> >> AAikman@xxxxxxxxx * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman
> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> >> This e-mail contains legally privileged and confidential information
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> >> If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the
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> >> was received in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and delete the
original message.
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM
> >> To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> >> Cc: Jonathan Robinson
> >> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I guess I do not support that.
> >> 
> >> I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it
back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have
past.
> >> 
> >> And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for
motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has
NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of
the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
> >> 
> >> I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should
never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair
from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination
of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
> >> 
> >> A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC
based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go
her way.
> >> 
> >> avri
> >> 
> >> On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> Avri,
> >>> 
> >>> Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the
spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two
votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some
evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did
not happen.
> >>> 
> >>> I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence
of misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
> >>> 
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> 
> >>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> >>> 
> >>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@xxxxxxxx]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >>> To: Neuman, Jeff
> >>> Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx; Jonathan Robinson
> >>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >>> 
> >>> Hi,
> >>> 
> >>> Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is
not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at
the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board
for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that
the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has
passed or not.
> >>> 
> >>> To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the
reality of the situation.
> >>> 
> >>> avri
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed
to as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on
items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given
policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group
making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last
evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as
supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over
again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on
consensus.
> >>>> 
> >>>> All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the
result in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that
ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to
be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and
unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse
within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence
that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse,
harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a
second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> 
> >>>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@xxxxxxxx]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >>>> To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff
> >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to
vote as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group),
two remedies were possible.
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it
is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and
accountability.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to
make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my
stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they
should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If
it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida
was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would
have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that
it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to
wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
> >>>> 
> >>>> avri
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----------------------
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> >
> 
> 
> 
>  
> -- 
> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca
> Treasurer, Global Knowledge Partnership Foundation, www.gkpfoundation.org
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> Skype: alain.berranger
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> -- 
> Alain Berranger, B.Eng, MBA
> Member, Board of Directors, CECI, http://www.ceci.ca
> Executive-in-residence, Schulich School of Business, www.schulich.yorku.ca
> Treasurer, Global Knowledge Partnership Foundation, www.gkpfoundation.org
> NA representative, Chasquinet Foundation, www.chasquinet.org
> Chair, NPOC, NCSG, ICANN, http://npoc.org/
> O:+1 514 484 7824; M:+1 514 704 7824
> Skype: alain.berranger
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