RE: [gnso-pednr-dt] Ownership of domain names: some hard questions

["Mike Rodenbaugh" <icann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Michele,

Registrants ARE asking, they have asked ICANN, and they are asking via this
WG to for ICANN to come to some clarity.  It is within remit of this group
to try to make some recommendations in that regard.  "In the agreement or
its not" are not the only two possibility, something could be 'more
prominently and clearly in the agreement', and that is something we should
work towards... minimum concepts that must be prominently and clearly
disclosed, because they are not well understood today and they benefit
registrars in a way that is unseemly to much of the rest of the community.
If registrars are going to continue to takeover domains at expiration, and
do whatever they want with them, that prominently should be disclosed at the
time of registration and expiration.  The big difference with your real
estate analogy is that the price of the real estate is not likely to
exponentially jump if the former tenant has second thoughts and wishes to
release the property that they had presumably previously invested in.

As you know, I certainly don't think all registrars are terrible, and I
didn't read Siva to be saying that.  We are only trying to get to some
minimum standards so there is a basic, level playing field for all
registrars and registrants.

Mike Rodenbaugh
RODENBAUGH LAW
548 Market Street
San Francisco, CA  94104
(415) 738-8087
http://rodenbaugh.com



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-pednr-dt@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-pednr-dt@xxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Michele Neylon :: Blacknight
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:14 AM
To: gnso-pednr-dt@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-pednr-dt] Ownership of domain names: some hard questions



On 10 Dec 2009, at 17:47, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:

> 
> 
> But how many Registrants really understand what they sign?

It is completely outside the remit of this WG or any WG to act as anyone's
babysitter

If registrants don't understand what they are agreeing to, why don't they
ask?

> And if I as
> a Registrant tell a Registrar in Chennai that I am not signing the
> agreement, would he register a domain for me?

Of course not, that's why you are free to choose a supplier you want (with
over 900 accreditations it's not as if anyone has a monopoly)


> Most of these agreements
> take advantage of the fact that few users read these agreements.

Unless you have analysed every single agreement out there you would be
advised to retract that statement

> 
> It is all there in the agreement, but in fine print..

Either it's in the agreement or it's not.

Make up your mind


> So this PEDNR wg
> needs to work on getting ICANN to look into the clauses of a typical
> Registrar's agreement with the Registrant, and get the Registrars warn
> the Registrants in an understandable language what they are conceding
> to the Registrars.

Understandable to whom?

No matter how low you put the barrier it will never be low enough

And you seem to forget that agreements are legal documents. While it may be
laudable to discuss clarity etc., your demands are completely unreasonable
and unrealistic

> 
> It may be there in the contract, but that still does not make it a
> fair practice.

Define "fair practice"

I think it's fair and reasonable that a registrar get paid for the services
they provide.

I think it's fair and reasonable that a registrar remind their registrants
to renew their domains

I think it's fair and reasonable that having given registrants plenty of
opportunity to do this that the registrant through their inaction has given
up their rights to those names

The analogy I would use is that of property. If I lease / rent a property
for a period of time and don't renew the lease the landlord is free to give
the lease to someone else.

Why should domains be any different (assuming that there are no IP issues /
serious crime involved)



> Essentially this WG needs to pay attention to the
> clauses for which a Registrant's signature is taken.


No it doesn't

If you feel that "all registrars" are so "terrible" then  why don't you
setup a registrar that uses wonderfully clear English and get loads of
business out of it as a result?

Or do you want all registrars to conform to some Utopian ideals and
basically remove all essence of competition.

You also forget, conveniently, that not all law is the same. I am in
Ireland, so I am governed by Irish and EU law. There may be some piece of
law in place in Chile which gives people rights that I do not have here in
Ireland. 
So would you expect registrars to cater for that?

And of course, if registrars were to raise their sale price (retail) of a
..com domain for one year to say $500 in order to ensure that every possible
potential registrant could be catered for and so that we could give them one
to one sessions to explain any possibly confusing terms.

Unless you'd like our staff to work for free?


So to summarise: 

You are working on the false assumption that all registrars are evil and out
to get registrants

Your demands are wholly unreasonable and unrealistic (and two can play at
that game)

Regards

Michele

Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
http://www.blacknight.com/
http://blog.blacknight.com/
http://mneylon.tel
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
US: 213-233-1612 
UK: 0844 484 9361
Locall: 1850 929 929
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845