Re: [gnso-review-dt] Additional input on 360 Assessment Questions

[Stephane Van Gelder <svg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Volker, I would add that the type of skewing you are suggesting has already
been seen in the RrSG when it came out in support of VI...

Stéphane Van Gelder
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On 11 June 2014 10:24, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>  Hi stephane,
>
> even being able to chose where to vote may be problematic, actually. If
> for example a vertically integrated registry with a small registrar
> operation choses to vote as registrars, as their interests are already well
> maintained within the RySG without their vote, that would skeqw the balance
> between the groups. Similarly, a dotBrand operator opting to vote as a
> registry as the IPC "does not need" another voter would extend the
> influence of one stakeholder group into another.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker
>
>
> Am 10.06.2014 23:58, schrieb Stephane Van Gelder:
>
> I don't believe this is an issue as I think all SGs in the CPH and all
> constituencies in the NCPH have rules that prohibit a voting member from
> being a voting member of another group in the GNSO.
>
>  Can staff perhaps enlighten us on this?
>
>  Stéphane Van Gelder
> Chairman and Managing Director/Fondateur
> Milathan LTD
> "Internet Intelligence - Strategic Advice"
>
> T (FR): +33 (0)6 20 40 55 89
> T (UK): +44 (0)7583 457053
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>
> On 10 June 2014 19:48, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> It's something that probably needs to be addressed if it hasn't been
>> already.
>>
>> I'd be quite disturbed if a single company was voting in multiple places
>> on policies etc., that benefited them
>>
>> I don't have an issue with companies / organisations having membership
>> (of some kind) in multiple groups. If, for example, we were to start
>> selling more transit etc., then we'd probably want to follow the ISPs more
>> closely. But voting is a different matter.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>> --
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>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>> owner-gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:44 PM
>> To: Avri Doria; gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx
>>  Subject: Re: [gnso-review-dt] Additional input on 360 Assessment
>> Questions
>>
>>
>> I know some structures (like the RrSG) have either adopted changes to
>> their bylaws, or are working to, that would prohibit members from voting if
>> they are voting members in other SGs.  But it is not clear to me how this
>> is enforced on a community-wide basis.
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>> On 6/10/14, 12:28 , "Avri Doria" <avri@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >I thought there was already a rule somewhere in the SIC documents about
>> >being able to vote in only one SG.  Of course a company with many
>> >divisions could find a way to be a member of several.  Or could have
>> >staff members join multiple Constituencies or SGs as individuals.
>> >
>> >But how would one prevent that?  Of course one way to start is the
>> >requirement that all SGs list all of their members on a public web site.
>> > I think wee already have that requirement, somewhere, but I am not
>> >sure it is followed by all with equal fervor.
>> >
>> >Perhaps we should also have a question about the degree to which the
>> >various SGs and Cs follow SIC rules.
>> >
>> >avri
>> >
>> >
>> >On 10-Jun-14 19:07, Volker Greimann wrote:
>> >>
>> >> One further issue the DT may want to look at is if it is necessary to
>> >> devise policies that avoid "double dipping" i.e. representation of
>> >> one entity within multiple constituencies.
>> >> Without such policy one could argue that there is a risk for the
>> >> entire structure of ICANN being hollowed out or dominated by
>> >> specialized interest groups that happen to fit more than one
>> constituency.
>> >>
>> >> This is not necessarily a structural, but rather an organizational
>> >> issue, i.e. of defining which constituency best represents an entity.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> Volker
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Am 06.06.2014 23 <06.06.2014%2023>:44, schrieb Ron Andruff:
>> >>> Dear Chuck, James and all,
>> >>>
>> >>> As I catch up on this string reading through the posts since my last
>> >>>one I  am seeing a lot of parsing of words rather than an
>> >>>understanding of  what I  believe Avri and I are trying to bring to
>> >>>the fore.  What I am saying is  that the structure we have now
>> >>>appears to be serving only two groups -  Registries and Registrars -
>> >>>within all of ICANN.  Those of us who were  not  contracted parties
>> >>>were jammed together at an 11th hour meeting  similar to  how
>> >>>Yugoslavia was created post WWII, and we all know what happened to
>> >>>that  mashup...
>> >>>
>> >>> If there is commonality (and here I take issue with your comment
>> >>> James, re:
>> >>> the BC and IPC overlap, because that is NOT the case in our view) it
>> >>> is commonality around ICANN issues such as public interest, user's
>> >>> interests, as examples.  Otherwise the memberships in the various
>> >>> bodies that make up the NPCH could not be further from one another
>> >>> in their interests and actions.
>> >>>
>> >>> So we are saying -- as members of this WP -- the discord within the
>> >>> NCPH is palpable.  It is not dislike of each other, rather different
>> >>> views as constituencies.  Thus, we should give the house structure a
>> >>> serious review to see if there are other ways to structure the
>> >>> organization so that it better serves the institution and likewise
>> >>> the community.
>> >>>
>> >>> While Chuck has pointed to some results that have occurred over the
>> >>>years,  the few positive examples pale in comparison to all of the
>> >>>other  issues, big  and small, that have failed more often than not
>> >>>locked in stalemates,  e.g.
>> >>> Vertical Integration.  One result of VI is new registries
>> >>>handpicking  even  trademarked names and putting them into their own
>> >>>registrar to sell for  $1000's as premium names...  Was that the
>> >>>intended result the Board  thought  would happen when they took that
>> >>>over from the GNSO WG or was that  just an  outcome of a failure of
>> >>>the GNSO to fulfill its mandate...?  I don't know  the answer, but I
>> >>>do believe that things we have yet to see as a  result of  VI will
>> >>>haunt ICANN for decades to come.  Some may see this example as
>> >>>conflating issues, but it is not so much that as an example of what
>> >>>happens  when the GNSO doesn't work as it could.
>> >>>
>> >>> In my view, we should stop parsing words with explanations and get
>> >>> on with a full - 360 degree - review of the entire GNSO...
>> >>> stakeholder groups, houses, NCAs, voting, how to manage new entrants
>> >>> (constituencies, communities, brands, geos) etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> We need new ideas to build a structure that meets today's and
>> >>> tomorrow's (as far as we can anticipate them) needs.  The survey
>> >>> respondents will give us the data to construct the 'new GNSO'.  We
>> >>> just have to figure out how to put a survey together that asks all
>> >>> of these critical questions.
>> >>>
>> >>> A fresh idea for selecting Board members (as that discussion has
>> >>>also  come  up on this thread) is needed if we want to populate the
>> >>>ICANN Board  with the  most highly-qualified representatives.  When I
>> >>>consider how much vetting  prospective Board members go through via
>> >>>the Nom Com (as a result of my  participation in 2013 and again this
>> >>>year) I am amazed and appalled at  how  very little vetting those
>> >>>Board members that come through the SG's get...
>> >>> Why would the community choose such an uneven and illogical
>> >>>methodology?
>> >>> Given an opportunity to utilize a better process, I am sure the
>> >>>community  would seize on it for all the good reasons one can
>> >>>imagine.  So what  quality  of Board would we get if each
>> >>>constituency/stakeholder group were to put  forward three candidates
>> >>>for the Nom Com to vet and select one from?
>> >>> Would
>> >>> that raise the bar?  Would such a vetting process remove from the
>> >>>Board  those whose first interest may not be the good of ICANN?
>> Radical, yes.
>> >>> Workable, maybe.  Raise the quality of the ICANN Board of Directors,
>> >>>absolutely...
>> >>>
>> >>> Everyone on this WP should be thinking outside of the box if we hope
>> >>>to  generate a GNSO review/improvement from the bottom up.
>> >>>Otherwise, we  will  see change coming from the top down, whether we
>> >>>like it or not.  And then  what?
>> >>>
>> >>> Kind regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> RA
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Ron Andruff
>> >>> dotSport LLC
>> >>> www.lifedotsport.com
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: owner-gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx
>> >>> [mailto:owner-gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx]
>> >>> On Behalf Of Avri Doria
>> >>> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 16:11
>> >>> Cc: ntfy-gnso-review-dt@xxxxxxxxx
>> >>> Subject: Re: [gnso-review-dt] Additional input on 360 Assessment
>> >>> Questions
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 06-Jun-14 19:53, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Can you give me an example where the House structure has caused a
>> >>>>> problem with regard to policy development, which is the GNSO's
>> >>>>> primary role?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> The inability of the NCPH to perform any of it functions without
>> >>>> months of garbage processing.  It just does not work.  We have
>> >>>> great trouble electing a vice-chair and we have failed completely
>> >>>> in electing a Board member this time.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes]  I don't think this
>> >>>> has impacted policy development but it is still a very good point of
>> >>>> an issue that needs to be dealt with.   I would like to think (maybe
>> >>>> naively) that this should be able to be solved within the existing
>> >>>> structure.  If the two houses cannot resolve it among themselves,
>> >>>> then maybe it should be discussed by the full Council.
>> >>> It can't be.  If anything it has gotten worse over the three years
>> >>> and gets worse all the time.
>> >>>
>> >>> And I certainly can't see discussing it in council.  What is the
>> >>>difference  between discussing it in the house and in council.  the
>> >>>other house is  going  to give us advice on how to get along.  Not
>> >>>too likely.
>> >>> In all my years of studying counseling and group dynamics that has
>> >>>never  been a workable formula.
>> >>>
>> >>> Kind of like a one neighbor trying to fix the marital problems of
>> >>> their neighbors.
>> >>>
>> >>> And before you suggest we go to a counselor, we did.  And indeed
>> >>>when it  gets too tough the Ombudsman can help us iron our a
>> >>>compromise, but  that is  not way to live.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Additionally, and I can see why the CPH would not mind, it is
>> >>>> obvious that the differences inside the NCPH will keep use from
>> >>>> ever being able to elect a Chair from our side of the GNSO.  That
>> >>>> is a kind of dysfunction that rots most organizations sooner or
>> later.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck
>> >>>> Gomes]  I think this is kind of an unfair statement.  The reality
>> >>>> is that the NCPH did not put forward a candidate in the last round.
>> >>>> If you think it is impossible, maybe the Council should explore
>> >>>> ways to rotate the position among the two houses.  I haven't
>> >>>> discussed this with others in the CPH but I personally would be
>> >>>> fine with that as long as the candidates have good leadership
>> >>>> skills and are able to commit the time.
>> >>> Yeah maybe.  But no.  In fact, names withheld, I have even have CPH
>> >>> people tell me this that they realized there was no way we could
>> >>> ever put up a candidate that could win because our vote would always
>> >>> split.
>> >>> Though the idea of us putting up a candidate we agreed on is rather
>> >>> funny.
>> >>> Pathetic humor, but funny.
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Is the adversarial problem you observed in the Council or the GNSO
>> >>>>> in general?  I am not on the Council so I cannot speak to that
>> directly.
>> >>> On council we can actually sometime agree on some issues.  We mostly
>> >>>all  know how to behave professionally in council most of the time.
>> >>>
>> >>>> The Council is not sperate form the GNSO.  The dysfunction is in
>> >>>> both on the NCPH side.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Additionally the house structure makes it impossible to ever
>> >>>> consider adding new SGs, and with the growth of the new gTLD space,
>> >>>> that looks like a possible limitation.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes] Adding SGs would certainly
>> >>>> be complicated but I don't think it should be impossible.
>> >>> That would imbalance the house which would be complicated.
>> >>> Whereas without house, we could just add some more council members.
>> >>>> But I am not suggesting we add SGs at this point in time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What I am arguing for is gathering information.  Maybe my
>> >>>> perception is mine alone.  The fact that people aren't intersted in
>> >>>> gathering information strikes me as sort of problematic, though.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes]
>> >>>> As I think I have said several times, I am not opposed to gathering
>> >>>> the information but just question whether we should do it in this
>> >>>> exercise, i.e., the timing.
>> >>> I do not understand the timing issue.  This is the time.  next time
>> >>> is in 3 years.  There is one survey, one chance for the SIC to find
>> >>> out what needs to be done.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> If everything is as wonderful as you think it is, asking the
>> >>>> questions won't hurt anything, we will find out that everything is
>> >>>> wonderful and I am wrong.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes] If the group wants to ask
>> >>>> questions about structure, I won't fight.  And I didn't say
>> >>>> everything is wonderful.  Everything is far from wonderful but I am
>> >>>> not convinced that is largely a factor of structure.
>> >>> There we have a difference of opinion. I think structure is a key
>> >>> component to things working out well or purely, not the only one,
>> >>> but a critical one.
>> >>> You either accentuate the differences with sets of oppositions, or
>> >>> you put together a structure that allows many different alliances to
>> >>> form, with these alliance changing over time.  Because of the strict
>> >>> diremption in the voting structure, house versus house, SG versus
>> >>> SG, alliances are much more difficult.  When I compare the days in
>> >>> the council my last time, with this time, the alliance making was
>> >>> far more dynamic in the past.
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As I say, at this point I am advocate gathering info.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But yes, I beleive we could eliminate the houses and keep almost
>> >>>> everything else the same, rather simply, all we would need to do is
>> >>>> figure out how to elect vice chairs and Board members.  But for the
>> >>>> NCPH it would remove a limitation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As for electing the Board, I consider it a real democracy problem
>> >>>> that one person is elected by 8 people, while the other is elected
>> >>>> by
>> >>>> 5 people.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes] Please translate this for me.
>> >>>
>> >>> (: that is far too few people for a voting population.  The idea
>> >>>that one  board seat is elected by a group of 7 voters in one
>> >>>instance and by
>> >>> 13 in another is a problem in accountability.  21 voters is small
>> >>>enough.  I  would actually like to see us take a page out of the
>> >>>AT-Large book and  add  the SG chairs to the voting group for a bit
>> >>>more depth.
>> >>> But I know that is a structural change too far.  The point is a
>> >>>large  more  diverse representative voting populations makes for
>> >>>better democracy,  aka it  is better for accountability
>> >>>
>> >>>> Finally I think having a homeless voteless NCA is a real limitation
>> >>>> on the community's influence on the GNSO.
>> >>> BTW, I think this was intentional on the part of the GNSO committee
>> >>> (which i was one but dissented from) that came up with this
>> >>> mishigas*.
>> >>> They wanted to decrease the influence of the NCAs.
>> >>>
>> >>> [Chuck Gomes] I need some
>> >>>> help understanding this.  BTW, the homeless, voteless NCA is
>> >>>> providing some excellent service for the GNSO in leading this group
>> >>>> and representing the GNSO with SIC on GNSO Review.  To me that is
>> >>>> much more valuable than any vote would be.
>> >>> Yes I spoke of Jen's great service in our last meeting.  And she
>> >>>could do  just as well if she had a vote.  Many people do good jobs
>> >>>in the council  without needing to give up their vote to do so.
>> >>>Jonathan provides great  service as a neutral chair, yet he retains
>> >>>his vote. The two issues  are not  related.  The community selects
>> >>>three people to contribute to the  decisions  making.  Voting is part
>> >>>of that.
>> >>>
>> >>> Would it make sense for us all to give up our votes and just manage
>> >>> teams?
>> >>> We would be contributing just as much.
>> >>>
>> >>> avri
>> >>>
>> >>> * yiddish word for a special kind of craziness
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
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