Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] missing recommendation in 7.1

[Tim Ruiz <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Rick, you've been around long enough to know what the issues are, and that have 
been repeatedly brought up. If you don't know, then maybe you need to do the 
catching up instead of trying to assign a report on it for you.

In any event, I don't believe Avri is being disruptive and her concerns 
certainly shouldn't be swept aside with a few inappropriate expletives.

Tim

On Sep 20, 2013, at 2:17 PM, "Rick Wesson" 
<rick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:rick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

I've sat one the side lines for most of this thread.

Avri,

I have reviewed all your comments, however what I am looking for is a much more 
detailed analysis of your points on privacy. I hear you YELLING at the last 
minute but your notes don't reflect *any* analysis of thick-whois privacy 
implications.

There have been many like you, over the years, that state this is _IMPORTANT_ 
without framing the issue clearly.

I will loudly declare your desires out of scope, without a lengthy analytic 
post from you on what the issue you have is. Lengthy like 3K-5K words on just 
WTF you are thinking.

You want "privacy on the front burner" -- well then you had better educate *all 
of us* on just what your blocking tactic is to accomplish. We have discussed 
privacy for well over 10 years, Privacy in the whois is like FTL (faster than 
light) travel to a physicist.

Of course privacy is important, its just out of scope, not within our working 
groups remit. The reason we narrowly define working group charters is so that 
they can ignore bug problems and solve little ones.

Avri, stop being disruptive and start pounding out some prose that make sense, 
privacy isn't going to be solved by us and its an issue that by design was not 
included within the groups remit.

so educate me,


-rick





On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx<mailto:avri@xxxxxxx>> 
wrote:

Hi,

All lovely ideas, but they don't meet the need to put the privacy issues on the 
front burner.

avri

On 20 Sep 2013, at 09:24, Mike O'Connor wrote:

> [hijacking this thread back to its original topic]
>
> hi Avri,
>
> i, for one, think turnabout on the way to consensus is one of the very best 
> things about ICANN.  thanks Avri
>
> here's language describing that legal review as it stands (this is the last 
> paragraph of Discussion section of 5.5 Data Protection
>
> page 30:  "Again, these questions must be explored in more depth by ICANN 
> Staff, starting with the General Counsel’s Office, and by the community. As 
> an added benefit, analyses concerning change of applicable laws with respect 
> to transition from a thin to a thick environment also may prove valuable in 
> the event of changes in a registry’s management, presumably an increasing 
> likelihood given the volume of new gTLDs on the horizon."
>
> i *think* that's the only place it shows up in the current draft, which means 
> that while we worked hard on the language, it's not really a recommendation 
> right now and kindof buried down in the details.  it's also vague on the 
> sequencing -- but i have been presuming that the legal review would have to 
> happen before the conversion and would be comfortable clarifying that.
>
> from a report-drafting standpoint if we pursue this direction, i think we'd 
> want to do a few minor revisions to provide support for that big-R 
> recommendation that's being proposed.
>
> - clarify that sequence
>
> - move that paragraph from the "Discussion" section of 5.5 down to the 
> "Conclusions" section to provide stronger underpinnings for the recommendation
>
> all pretty easy to do from a mechanical report-drafting point of view, if the 
> group agrees on that approach.
>
> good work.  carry on,
>
> mikey
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 19, 2013, at 10:47 AM, Avri Doria <avri@xxxxxxx<mailto:avri@xxxxxxx>> 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Forgive me for doing this bit of turnabout: is this legal review something 
>> that would occur before the thick whois for incumbent registries was put 
>> into effect?
>>
>> At first blush, if this was combined with a 7.3. recommendation for a full 
>> Issues report, I might be able to accept it and convince the NCSG that this 
>> was a good compromise.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> avri
>>
>>
>> On 19 Sep 2013, at 11:14, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I still find Avri's proposed language too broad, so I tried my hand at a 
>>> quick rewrite. Probably still needs a little fiddling, but more in the 
>>> direction what I could support, although putting this into 7.1 is a bit 
>>> iffy to me.
>>> The WG discussed many of the issues involved in moving from having a 
>>> registration currently governed under the privacy rules by one jurisdiction 
>>> in a thin whois to another jurisdiction, the jurisdiction of the Registry 
>>> in a thick whois.  The WG did not feel it was competent to reach a final 
>>> conclusion on these issues involving international privacy laws.
>>> The Working group therefore makes the following recommendation:
>>>
>>> . We recommend that the ICANN Board
>>> request an independent legal review to be undertaken on the privacy 
>>> implications of a transfer of registrant data between jurisdictions.
>>> Reasons: If we could not find ourselves competent to decide a small matter 
>>> like the transfer of private data, how can we expect another PDP to tackle 
>>> an even broader issue of privacy issues surrounding WHOIS in general? For 
>>> the purposes of this WG, the determination that we were unable to reach a 
>>> final conclusion on could and should be resolved by independent counsel.
>>>
>>> While a new PDP on WHOIS and privacy issues is certainly something worth 
>>> considering and something I would welcome, I do not feel that this WG needs 
>>> to make that recommendation as it would be much broader than the smaller 
>>> issue we were tasked to tackle.
>>>
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> For me this needs to be a Recommendation (7.1, big R), not an extra 
>>>> consideration.  This issue was within the purview of the group and the 
>>>> group bailed on it for lack of capability.  Fine, then lets step and 
>>>> recommend that those that have the capability do so.    In this age of 
>>>> world attention on privacy issues, I can't beleive we are still dancing 
>>>> around the point.
>>>>
>>>> I am currently working on getting the NCSG to endorse this.  As the 
>>>> alternate chair of the NCSG Policy committee I beleive this is something 
>>>> that will be supported by the NCSG.  I will personally submit a minority 
>>>> position and work to get the NCSG to endorse it, if this recommendation is 
>>>> not included in 7.1.  For myself at this point, I will reject the entire 
>>>> report without this, as the report is incomplete without this as a primary 
>>>> Recommendation.  To my mind NCSG would be shirking it responsibilities if 
>>>> we let this report go out without such a recommendation.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, my impression from the list discussion was that there was 
>>>> support, but that wording needed changing.  It was changed.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that there are those who may be playing divide and conquer 
>>>> games behind the scenes, claiming that my position will hurt NCSG's 
>>>> reputation.  I have bcc'e d the NCSG on this note so that they themselves 
>>>> can determine if it is reputation damaging.  There are others who are are 
>>>> cynically claiming that I am going against the bottom-up model by 
>>>> insisting on privacy considerations.  I reject those claims.
>>>>
>>>> avri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19 Sep 2013, at 10:25, Mike O'Connor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> i may have been the culprit here.  Avri, my interpretation of the 
>>>>> desultory conversation on the list was that there *wasn't* much support 
>>>>> for the idea.  and then when you didn't show up on last week's call to 
>>>>> pitch/push it, i forgot to bring it up.  my bad -- sorry about that.
>>>>>
>>>>> let's try to have a vigorous conversation about this on the list, and 
>>>>> drive to a conclusion on the call next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Avri, you and i had a one-to-one email exchange about this and i 
>>>>> suggested that this recommendation might fit better, and be more widely 
>>>>> accepted, if it was in the privacy and data protection part of our report 
>>>>> (Section 7.3).  could you give us an indication of whether acceptance of 
>>>>> this version of the recommendation is required?  in more casual terms, is 
>>>>> there any wiggle room here?  i think it would be helpful for the rest of 
>>>>> the group to know the framework for the conversation.
>>>>>
>>>>> carry on folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> mikey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 18, 2013, at 6:39 PM, Avri Doria
>>>>> <avri@xxxxxxx<mailto:avri@xxxxxxx>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was disappointed to not see the recommendation for the Issues report 
>>>>>> included in 7.1.    I thought we had discussed it on this list and thee 
>>>>>> had been little opposition, though there was some.  I cannot support 
>>>>>> this report with a strong recommendation for follow on work on the 
>>>>>> Privacy issues.  And, contrary to what others may beleive, I do not see 
>>>>>> any such work currently ongoing in ICANN.  I think it i s unfortunate 
>>>>>> that we keep pushing off this work and are not willing to face it 
>>>>>> directly.  I beleive I have the support of others in the NCSG, though 
>>>>>> the content of a minority statement has yet to be decided on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While still somewhat inadequate, I am ready to argue for going along 
>>>>>> with consensus on this document if the following is included in 7.1:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The WG  discussed many of the issues involved in moving from having a 
>>>>>> registration currently governed under the privacy rules by one 
>>>>>> jurisdiction in a thick whois to another jurisdiction, the jurisdiction 
>>>>>> of the Registry in a thick whois.  The WG did not feel it was competent 
>>>>>> to fully discuss these privacy issues and was not able to fully separate 
>>>>>> the privacy issues involved in such a move from the general privacy 
>>>>>> issues that need to be resolved in Whois.  there was also concern with 
>>>>>> intersection with other related Privacy issues that ICANN currently 
>>>>>> needs to work on.  The Working group therefore makes the following 
>>>>>> recommendation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . We recommend that the ICANN Board request a GNSO issues report to 
>>>>>> cover the issue of Privacy as related to WHOIS and other related GNSO 
>>>>>> policies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> avri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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