Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Single Registrant TLDs

[Volker Greimann - Key-Systems GmbH <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

As far as I understood the vertically integrated single owner single 
user concept, there is no consumer who could benefit as all domains 
would be owner by the registry, so consumer interest does not directly 
figure into the equasion. Please correct me if I misunderstood the 
concept. Many of the security systems will have to be implemented anyway 
regardless if the registry is providing registration services itself or 
not to prevent abuse or accidental mishandling.
In the end, we may very well end up with a system you are describing, 
but only as an exception. I agree there may be scenarios where total VI 
without the use of registrars _may_ be possible and make sense, but this 
will in all likelyhood not be the general system. Allowing all nGTLD 
applicants to bypass the registrar system would effectively lead us back 
to the domain business we had a decade ago, which is IMHO definitely not 
in the interest of the consumer. Lets first work out if and under which 
circumstances VI and CO may be possible within the framework of the 
current system (i.e. registries and registrars with seperate functions) 
before we start to discuss exceptions to the general system.
Nevertheless, I support VI and CO to remain on the table as viable options.

> So what you are saying is that in order to maintain the cherade of having 
> registrars in a SR TLD (even without any consumer benefit), registries should 
> be forced to build in extra protections and make their systems much more 
> complicated than today. And I am not even talking about a real registry like we 
> have today.  In other words, simply to perform data entry into a registry that 
> does not even need an SRS function, you will require .post or a SR TLD to build 
> an expensive SRS and these extra locks simply to have registrars, but for no 
> consumer benefit?
>
> That does not make sense to me.
> Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq.
> Vice President, Law & Policy
> NeuStar, Inc.
> Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx <owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: 'Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx' <Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Fri Apr 09 06:19:26 2010
> Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Single Registrant TLDs
>
>
> I do not agree on the dangers you propose in the .post example. A 
> deletion could be prevented by the registry technically or by policy, 
> for example by not allowing registrars to delete immediately, and 
> imposing a pre-deletion phase instead, where the domain remains active 
> but the registrant must choose a new registrar. Preventing changes can 
> be prevented by registry locks which must be lifted by the registrant 
> directly before changes can take place.
> I do agree that of course the IOC or any other registry _can_ do all 
> necessary functions in house. It will probably be easier and more 
> comfortable for them. Their registration policies will likely hold many 
> of these functions in house. However, how do you differentiate such 
> possibly legitimate registries from others that will claim the same 
> perogative for themselves, but will only use this as a loophole. Why 
> should .web, .shop, .youcanprobablythinkofmanymoreexamples not also be 
> allowed to set up a similar membership scheme that will allow them to 
> bypass registrars entirely, if other gTLD registries are allowed to use 
> such a model? Why should established registries in this scenario still 
> be forced to continue using registrars, if nGTLD registries are freed 
> from this requirement?
> I am not proposing not to have VI registries, however I do think that if 
> we decide to propose such a system to the board, we should be clear 
> about the consequences such integration may have, and find ways to 
> prevent a circumvention of the current system, which in the past decade 
> has proven to be an effective and good system. I do believe we will end 
> up with some form of VI, but only as an exception, not the rule. Given 
> the limited time available, I do suggest to first define the rule, and 
> leave the exceptions for later.
>   
> > The disadvantage is having to rely on a third party (a registrar) which can undermine the 
> > security and stability of the space.  What I am saying is that the onlympic committee can 
> > do the dns function in house if it chose to.  Why should they be forced to even consider 
> > a third party to do "registrations".  The mere fact of using a third party that 
> > essentially could have the right to make changes to its registration system may not be 
> > one that the entity even wants to take on.  That is the reason some organizations run 
> > their own dns in the first place (because they may not want to outsource the 
> > functionality).
> >
> > Think of the .post example.  Does the UPU want to force all national pst 
> > offices to have to use a third party registrar for the simple act of data entry 
> > when that third party registrar could have the power to delete a registration, 
> > change the name servers, etc. Thereby bringing down the entire postal system in 
> > that nation.  Maybe they do trust a third party to that or maybe they donw.  My 
> > point is that they should actually have a choice.
> > Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq.
> > Vice President, Law & Policy
> > NeuStar, Inc.
> > Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx <owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: 'Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx' <Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thu Apr 08 06:00:07 2010
> > Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Single Registrant TLDs
> >
> >
> > Jeff, I see your point but let me ask one question here:
> >
> > What is the operative disadvantage of maintaining the 
> > registry-registrar-system even in such cases? The same goals could 
> > easily be accomplished by using the registry-registrar-registrant model 
> > the following way:
> > The IOC applies for .olympic, and limits the ability to register certain 
> > domain names domain names to NOCs, organizing cities and the official 
> > sponsors only, while at the same time reserving other  domains for their 
> > own use in their policy, just as any registry does today. The list of 
> > reserved domain names would of course be longer. The delegated domains 
> > are registered by applicable registrants through their registrar of 
> > choice while the reserved domain names must be used by the IOC directly.
> > The only change would be that the NOCs would be the actual registrants 
> > of the delagated domains, not the IOC. The IOC would retain the right to 
> > vet any application; domains would only be activated after such approval 
> > is granted by the registry. A similar model has just been imposed in 
> > .CN. I think .museum operates a similar system as well. While it makes 
> > registrations more complicated and increases registry control, this 
> > effect would be desirable to the registry owner of a .brand or .ngo.
> > There is no actual need to eliminate the registrar in such a model as 
> > the same goals can be reached with the current system.
> > Now the second question that arises in this scenario is of course if the 
> > registry should be allowed to operated a registrar of its own. I would 
> > think that many registrars would be hesitant to even consider 
> > implementing .olympic into their system even if given equal opportunity 
> > to do so due to the low number of total registrations to be expected 
> > compared to the cost of implementation and maintaining registry 
> > relations. This ties in directly with one of the earlier suggestions in 
> > the discussions of VI and CO, where VI and CO would be permitted, under 
> > the condition that the VI/CO-registrar be limited in the number of 
> > domains it may register in total.
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> >
> >
> >   
> >     
> > > An organization (commercial or noncommercial or nongovernmental) could establish a SR TLD 
> > > whereby it owns all of the names and allows others to use those names, but there is no 
> > > concept of having others" register" names.  For example, what if the 
> > > International olympic committee wanted .olympic and they only had 200 registrations (1 
> > > for each country's olympic committee...i.e., USOC.olympic (for the US Olympic Committee). 
> > > In that case, you could have one person at the International Olympic Committee enter all 
> > > of the relevant information into a database (notice I didn't use the word registry 
> > > database).  There is no SRS or WHOIS functionality per se normally thought of as a 
> > > registry, and no real registrar functionality of going through a EPP registration 
> > > process.  There is no value add of having to go through an entity we today call a 
> > > registrar.
> > >
> > > This is a made up example, but I think is very real and in some ways similar to what I have heard .post is today.  I don't have any inside information for .post, but as I understand the application from years ago, .post may want to give the second level registrations to the national post offices to use as they see fit.  The charade of having to select registrars because of legacy requirements just makes no sense.  There is no real concept of a registrar in that sense nor any value add of requiring the ultimate recipient of the .post ( the national post offices) to have to select a registrar.  There is no need for the complexity of setting up a shared registration system at the registry level either.  
> > >
> > > I see traditional brand tlds the same way and very real. Although no Brand TLDs 
> > > may have filed public comments, let me tell you we have talked to some and this 
> > > is a very real example (though I made up the olympic example).
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq.
> > > Vice President, Law & Policy
> > > NeuStar, Inc.
> > > Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx <owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx <Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wed Apr 07 22:50:56 2010
> > > Subject: [gnso-vi-feb10] Single Registrant TLDs
> > >
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > We may be getting a little wrapped around the axle on this topic (this is no-one's fault as it's complex) so I'd like to take a shot at summarizing where it stands.   
> > >
> > > We're not debating whether or not Single Registrant (SR) TLDs should be 
> > > allowed.   They are allowed  -- and have been allowed from the first version of 
> > > the DAG.      Any registry can register names just to itself and no registry is 
> > > required to provide open access to registrars.
> > >
> > > Also, no rule we devise will prevent SR TLDs.   We're making rules about who can own registries and registrars, not about who can own domains.  An SR TLD can exist if we recommend zero cross ownership and it can exist if we recommend 100% cross ownership. 
> > >
> > > What we're debating is whether or not,  in order to register its names,   an SR TLD registry must be accredited as a registrar  (and, importantly,  pay the fees that accompany that registrar accreditation).  This is the area of contention.   
> > >
> > > If anyone feels I've mischaracterized the issue please jump in.
> > >
> > >
> > > Also, I agree with the argument Volker made yesterday.    I think we should 
> > > first see if we can find a rule-set that suits all types of registries.  This 
> > > may be possible.   If we find the overall rule-set doesn't suit a particular 
> > > registry-type then we can drill down on exception cases.
> > >
> > > RT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   
> > >     
> > >       
> >   
> >     
>
>   

--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
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