Re: [gnso-pednr-dt] Post expiry domain email functionality.

[Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dear Michele,

I didn't offer to make a design blueprint for the technical architecture of
this back up service, but merely tried to gather technical opinion from
technical experts and commercial opinion from a commercial company on this
proposition. What is the need here for you to highlight the fact that I have
a non-technical background?

Domain Registrants have their email traffic interrupted during the renewal /
recovery period and this is a problem. Registrars could extend the courtesy
of extended email functionality, but it is not it done probably due to valid
cost considerations. You have tried to argue that this interruption is a
good idea because it gives a wake up call ! and then tried to argue that it
any solution technically far too complicated and finally resorted to 'ad
hominem' - an attack on the person "the person seeking a technical solution
from technical experts is not an expert himself" Doesn't make sense. Appears
that you would like this WG to be completely closed on the idea of even
exploring a solution. on.

I admit your proclamation that you are a technical expert, but it is not
true that the solution isn't technically as complicated as you make out to
be. That is another technical opinion that I have taken before responding to
your mail.

( Just to be curious, what is the level of your technical expertise?  I have
had opportunities to interact with some of the most accomplished technical
experts and have found that the higher their level of expertise, the more
humble and kinder they are. I have not seen any of them gloat over the fact
that they are technically knowledgeable )

Sivasubramanian M.





On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 1:59 AM, Michele Neylon :: Blacknight <
michele@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
>
> On 25 May 2010, at 20:09, Sivasubramanian M wrote:
>
> >
> > Siva
> >
> > Pay who and how?
> >
> > Bearing in mind that you're talking about registrants who haven't renewed
> their domain names ...
> >
> > There are several models by which an external email service could offer
> such a service. Just as there is a free version and business version of a
> service such as gmail, a basic level of email service could be offered free
> to Registrants by gmail / msn / yahoo (if they are interested in a
> subscriber base of 150 million domain Registrants, increasing). The service
> provider may offer optional subscription plans for value added services.
> >
> > If it is icann / an icann supported email server, the Registrant could
> pay an additional email surcharge in cases where he renews the domain after
> an interruption. Here there is an issue of the Registrants who choose not to
> renew the domain names at all. The cost of email service provided to the
> Registrants who choose not to renew domain names has to be factored into the
> cost of those who do renew their domain names.
>
>
> I honestly can't see how anyone would collect this money ..
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > or it will be a service offered on a neo-Interent-business model by a
> company such as Google or MSN or it will be an ICANN supported service by a
> third party.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It is not necessary to abruptly discontinue email service in a post
> expiry situation.
> > >
> > > Until you can answer the key question about who is going to pay for it
> then it is going to be necessary
> > >
> > > Just because it's technically "possible" doesn't render it viable and
> the email exchange clearly supports the view that we have all been promoting
> for months. It makes MORE sense for the registrant to simply renew the
> domain name in a timely fashion.
> > >
> > > I agree that it makes more sense for Registrants to renew their domain
> names in time. But I am concerned about those Registrants (even if they are
> a smaller proportion) whose domain names expire unnoticed.
> >
> > And so you expect this "magical" email service to "know" where the mail
> is meant to go?
> >
> > The mail need not go anywhere, the mail traffic inwards, directed to the
> domain now comes to the external email service provider / icann server. It
> stays there, until the Registrant establishes his ownership, either by prior
> anticipatory registration with this post expiry email service or if he had
> failed to do that, by some other manner of authentication. At this point of
> time, whether or not the Registrant has still renewed his domain name or
> not, the email log in functionality is facilitated for the Registrant. He
> can keep it on the server or download it to his email client.
> >
> >
> > You also expect people to be able to access it as well I assume?
> >
> > How?
> >
> > After establishing that he is the Registrant, he will be able to access
> it the same way he accesses any other email service
>
> Sorry, but I honestly can't see how that is going to work
>
> A single domain could be serving thousands of users. It could even be
> serving multiple subdomains with multiple MX records, each one in turn
> serving hundreds if not thousands of mail users.
>
> While you can use wildcards for A records I don't think you'd be able to do
> the same with MX records (you can't even use an IP address for an MX record)
>
> We've got less than 30 people connecting to mail, but our setup would give
> a lot of people grey hairs - and I suspect we're not alone.
>
> The overhead, in terms of man hours, technical support etc., far outweigh
> any potential benefit
>
> In any case, it is technically impossible for the mail service to be
> uninterrupted to the user, so I honestly can't see how your concept is
> anyway better than the mail simply ceasing to function.
>
> Put another way
>
> If I send email to domainx.tld and get a bounce or other error (could be
> host not found - doesn't really matter) then I know that the email hasn't
> reached the destination, so I can take other action to ensure that the
> message gets through (I could resort to telephone, fax or whatever)
>
> However, if all mail for a domain is being directed into a "magical"
> service then I won't know that the mail hasn't reached the destination.
>
> Sure, it *might* be somewhere on a server somewhere, but since the
> recipient doesn't even know there is an issue yet they've no way of
> accessing the email.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Also your suggestion in this email exchange suggests that ICANN would
> somehow want to get involved with an "icann owned or icann-assigned server"
> (sic) is disturbing.
> > > Do you even understand what ICANN's role is in all this?
> > >
> > > What is wrong if I want ICANN to get involved in an ICANN owned or
> icann-assigned server? It is not disproportionately expensive and it is a
> direct service to domain Registrants about whom ICANN is supposed to care !
> >
> >
> > How are you qualified to decide what is expensive and what isn't?
> >
> > We are talking about 150 + million domain names of which half or more
> domain names might also be used for email.  To assure a certain level of
> perpetuity for 70 or 75 million (and increasing) email enabled domains, the
> cost of setting up and maintaining a redundant / fall back email server may
> not be proportionately expensive and can be built into ICANN's cost recovery
> calculations.
>
> No it can't
>
> It's completely outside ICANN's remit to start concerning itself with
> services that may (or may not) be attached to a domain name.
>
>
> >
> > Just to satisfy my own curiousity ...
> >
> > How many mail users do you currently manage?
> >
> > How many mail servers do you currently manage?
> >
> > How many mail servers have you configured?
> >
> > I have configured email accounts within my own domain names using cpanel.
> But if you ask me if I am a Technical Authority with expertise in setting up
> an email server from scratch, I am not.
>
> So why do you want to present a set of impractical and technically
> improbable solutions about a set of things that you don't fully understand?
>
>
> If you had limited yourself to stating that you'd like to see email still
> working, but couldn't see how I'd have left it be, but what you have been
> suggesting is completely unworkable.
>
> >
> > But anyone technically qualified may find that I am not altogether wrong.
>
> I, however,  am technically qualified and I have been trying to  point out
> that your theories are that - theories. In reality they would be impossible
> to implement in a manner that would bring any benefit to anyone
>
> Of course if you don't believe me I'd highly recommend that you join one of
> the many email admin groups and ask around.
>
> Regards
>
> Michele
>
>
>
> >
> > Thank you.
> > Sivasubramanian M
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The email exchange is attached as a PDF for the committee to act upon
> futher.
> > >
> > > What committee?.
> > >
> > > Sorry, I meant WG. This PEDNR WG
> >
> > OK
> >
> > >
> > > Sivasubramanian M
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mr Michele Neylon
> > > Blacknight Solutions
> > > Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> > > ICANN Accredited Registrar
> > > http://www.blacknight.com/
> > > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > > http://mneylon.tel
> > > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> > > US: 213-233-1612
> > > UK: 0844 484 9361
> > > Locall: 1850 929 929
> > > Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> > > -------------------------------
> > > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> > > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> > ICANN Accredited Registrar
> > http://www.blacknight.com/
> > http://blog.blacknight.com/
> > http://mneylon.tel
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> > US: 213-233-1612
> > UK: 0844 484 9361
> > Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> >
> >
> >
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> ICANN Accredited Registrar
> http://www.blacknight.com/
> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> http://mneylon.tel
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> US: 213-233-1612
> UK: 0844 484 9361
> Locall: 1850 929 929
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> -------------------------------
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>
>