RE: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] Dangers and risks of thick Whois

["Ray Fassett" <ray@xxxxxxxxx>]

The Registry Stakeholder Group raised the upfront concern this PDP would
have to be careful not to single out specific TLD's towards the goal of
achieving consensus policy.  Using criteria to distinguish, for example,
.CAT/.TEL from  .COM/.NET for purposes of arriving at a policy decision
could potentially be interpreted to have this effect.  

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx
[mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 10:05 AM
To: Rick Wesson
Cc: Don Blumenthal; Alan Greenberg; Avril Doria; Thick Whois
Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] Dangers and risks of thick Whois


I do not think matters of policy do or should depend on volume of
registrations. Regardless, .TEL has a deviating whois policy as well and
that was permitted even before it was known how large they would get.

Best,

Volker

> I believe that the main difference between .CAT/.TEL and COM/NET are 
> numbers. .CAT has too few registrations to matter or effect many 
> registrars.
>
> I have attached the ICANN registry transactions report for .CAT. There 
> are 27 registrars and total domains under management for the entire 
> TLD was 57,000
>
> There are 57,000 com/net domain registered every few hours.
>
> Really the policies that can be requested by/for a VI Registry (vi is 
> a unix text editor) are much different than policy that would be 
> reasonable for the world. com/net represent the bulk of registrations.
> My terminology might not be familiar.... A (vi) registry is one that 
> could be run with a text editor to manage zone file which is used to 
> publish the DNS.
>
> My point is that .CAT is too small to matter. See their transactions 
> report. Who is impacted, turns out almost no one. So, .CAT turns out 
> to be a bad example to use for policy because they almost dont exist.
>
> -rick
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Volker Greimann 
> <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> To obtain that information, we may want to contact the operators of 
>> .CAT and .TEL who used such evidence to get their exceptions 
>> confirmed by ICANN or look at  their RSEP applications for change. I 
>> believe that .CAT obtained various confirmations that the proposed 
>> (new) policy was more in line with the European data protection
guidelines than the ICANN vanilla policy.
>>
>> Here is the RSEP application with some added documentation:
>> http://www.icann.org/en/registries/rsep/puntcat-cat-request-05oct11-e
>> n.pdf
>>
>> Note especially the letter from spanish data protection authorties, 
>> and this
>> statement:
>> "The solution offered by the inquirer in this regard appears to be 
>> more appropriate than that which currently exists in protecting this 
>> fundamental right, as it ensures the confidentiality of the personal 
>> data of domain name owners and establishes a system enabling 
>> interested parties to contact them, thus providing a more complete 
>> fulfilment of the proportionality principle.
>> Logically, this solution would imply that the inquirer perform a new 
>> processing of the personal data of those wishing to contact the 
>> domain name owner, which must likewise abide by the provisions of 
>> Organic Law 15/1999, whereby the interested party must be informed of 
>> the processing of his/her personal data and the other principles, 
>> rights and obligations provided for by this Law must be observed. In 
>> addition, the inquirer must report the file created for registration 
>> in the Data Protection General Registry and keep the data the least 
>> possible amount of time necessary to fulfil the purpose justifying 
>> their processing."
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> I've seen claims that it may not be legal to publish Whois 
>> information in some countries. As has been noted, we need more than 
>> unsupported statements in our work, but that situation could create 
>> problems if a thick Ry were in a different country from the Rr.
>>
>> The claims weren't from this group but can anybody provide documentation?
>>
>> Don
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alan 
>> Greenberg
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:48 PM
>> To: Avril Doria; Thick Whois
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhoispdp-wg] Dangers and risks of thick Whois
>>
>>
>> The data passed to the registry is the same data that the registrar 
>> would make fully public in Whois.
>>
>> Yes, the information may be transferred to another jurisdiction. and 
>> that jurisdiction may treat PRIVATE information differently. If a 
>> thick whois required a registrar to transfer PRIVATE information, it
could be an issue.
>> But there is *NO* private data involved in this transfer. So how that 
>> target jurisdiction treats private information does not impact this
discussion.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> At 29/01/2013 01:51 PM, Avri Doria wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> As I understand it, in a thick whois, the Registrar would be forced 
>> to pass all that information to the Registry.  At this point they 
>> don't need to.
>>
>> So the information will then be transferred from one national 
>> jurisdiction to another.  And those jurisdictions could have a very 
>> different treatment of that private information.  That jurisdictional 
>> shift is the crux of the problem.
>>
>> To the group: Apologies for making Rick so very angry at me.
>>
>> avri
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29 Jan 2013, at 10:39, Alan Greenberg wrote:
>>
>> I agree on all of these principles, but do not understand the
>>
>> relevance to thick/thin Whois model. Why does the registry holding a 
>> copy of the data WHICH IS ALREADY PUBLICLY AVAILABLE alter anything? 
>> Privacy is still protected by the original registrar or proxy 
>> provider based on the laws in their jurisdiction.
>>
>> An organization that works on gay issues can register in a
>>
>> country and with a registrar that will hide their identity under 
>> multiple levels and will even defend a UDRP if necessary, without 
>> unmasking the original registrant". All that will show up in the 
>> registry database is the top proxy provider - exactly what the 
>> registrar would show in its Whois output in the thin model.
>>
>> I do note that as alluded to above, that most proxy providers
>>
>> will unmask the original registrant as soon as a UDRP is filed, even 
>> if that UDRP might have little merit. And even if the UDRP is lost, 
>> the original registrant's name will be published in the public report 
>> on the UDRP. I have never heard of anyone fighting to change that 
>> rule!
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>>
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>> --------------------------------------------
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>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /
www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese
Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per
E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /
www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it
is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this
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