Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms

[Antony Van Couvering <avc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Volker said: "In a way, the likelyhood of a harms is irrelevant. Effectively, 
all harms, no matter how likely must be taken seriously"

Sorry Volker but I have to say this doesn't make any sense.   If VI/CO should 
cause someone to be fearful, and that fear then spurred them into a slight 
paranoia, and then one day they got drunk, and their wife left them, and in 
desperation they killed Paul Kane, thus leaving only six people with "keys to 
the Internet," that would be a very unlikely harm.  So unlikely that we should 
ignore it.  

Scale up from there. 

We do need some sort of test of whether this is a real-life issue or just 
someone's fantasy.   

Antony



On Aug 12, 2010, at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:

> 
> In a way, the likelyhood of a harms is irrelevant. Effectively, all harms, no 
> matter how likely must be taken seriously. What is relevant is how a solution 
> to mitigate or prevent the harm can be structured.
> 
> Also, I would like to point out that many of the proposed harms are not 
> really harms in themselves. Take the much feared data sharing as an eample. 
> In itself, data sharing between registrars and registries is not a harm at 
> all. However, the abusive use of shared data can and should be considered a 
> harm.
> 
> Volker
>> I was 100% opposed to this notion when it was first raised and remain 100% 
>> opposed to this notion now.  It is irrelevant in my mind how likely people 
>> in this group believe a harm is to occur.  As the people in this group are 
>> generally not the ones likely to commit one of these harms (At least I 
>> believe), how are we to "guess" as to how likely something will occur.  The 
>> more appropriate conversations we should be having is recognizing the harms 
>> and figuring out ways (if at all) to prevent the harms.
>> 
>> Jeffrey J. Neuman
>> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Law&  Policy
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx] 
>> On Behalf Of Avri Doria
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:25 PM
>> To: Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>> 
>> 
>> hi,
>> 
>> I stil thank that getting a survey of how likely people think these harms 
>> are  (on a scale of 1 - 5)  and how dangerous they think they are  (on a 
>> scale of 1 - 5)  is a good idea.  I would then like to see the quotient of 
>> those two factors and the range and stddev.
>> 
>> We may each have our opinion on a particular harm and how it relates in some 
>> particular jurisdiction and at some point in time.  I would like to see some 
>> methods used to get at least the WG's statistical view on the idea.
>> 
>> Getting a wider view might be interesting as well.  I am not terribly 
>> worried about a deficiency in views of those who might not have followed 
>> everything (and how many people in the group have really followed 
>> _everything_?).  A bigger pool of respondents would be interesting, though 
>> then I would suggest adding a question on whether one considered themselves 
>> an informed member of the group or not.
>> 
>> a.
>> 
>> 
>> On 11 Aug 2010, at 17:36, Roberto Gaetano wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I haven't seen any comments on this, neither pros nor cons.
>>> It could be a good idea, although I have mixed feelings about going to the
>>> general public for some input, as the positions of people who have not
>>> followed completely the debate might be misleading.
>>> Opinions?
>>> R.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Andruff
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 04 August 2010 23:59
>>>> To: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Having spent some time quietly reading through the list of
>>>> harms noted on Jeff E's initial list (thanks also from my
>>>> side for kicking this off, Jeff!) I wonder if we should
>>>> consider putting up a Wiki and inviting the entire community
>>>> to weigh-in on harms they are aware of/perceive.  That would
>>>> give the WG the benefit of a more fully fleshed out list,
>>>> while allowing a broader range of contributors to bring their
>>>> concerns forward in a transparent manner.  We also need to
>>>> consider that many currently listed 'other' harms are denoted
>>>> in 2 or 3 word phrases (e.g., 'front running',
>>>> 'warehousing') and these all need to be defined accurately as well.
>>>> 
>>>> Is this a more comprehensive way to approach this?  Do we
>>>> have time for such a thing?
>>>> 
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> 
>>>> RA
>>>> 
>>>> Ronald N. Andruff
>>>> RNA Partners, Inc.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Jeff Eckhaus
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:03 PM
>>>> To: tim@xxxxxxxxxxx; Stéphane Van Gelder;
>>>> owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman; Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For those who missed the call today, Tim is correct. We are
>>>> currently accumulating the list of harms, that is all
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: tim@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tim@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 3:46 PM
>>>> To: Stéphane Van Gelder; owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx; Jeff Eckhaus
>>>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman; Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>> 
>>>> Who is we? There is more than one proposal on the table and
>>>> *we* the WG have made no recommendations. In any event, I
>>>> didn't think this was agreeing or disagreeing with anything
>>>> yet. Just accumulating the harms we all see.
>>>> 
>>>> Tim
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Stéphane Van Gelder<stephane.vangelder@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sender: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:22:38
>>>> To: Jeff Eckhaus<eckhaus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Cc: Tim Ruiz<tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>; Kathy
>>>> Kleiman<kKleiman@xxxxxxx>;
>>>> Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx<Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Just a comment on Tim's first point. I don't agree if, as we
>>>> have proposed, the vertically integrated registry/registrar
>>>> is not allowed to sell in its own TLD. In that case, the
>>>> competitive environment remains.
>>>> 
>>>> Stéphane
>>>> 
>>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone4
>>>> 
>>>> Le 2 août 2010 à 22:22, Jeff Eckhaus
>>>> <eckhaus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks. Will add to the list and please keep sending to me
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Tim Ruiz [mailto:tim@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>>> To: Jeff Eckhaus
>>>>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman; Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>> 
>>>>> These are the harms that I believe are likely:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Higher prices - Each gTLD is a monopoly of that name space,
>>>>> competition
>>>> within that name space has been provided by registrars.
>>>> Allowing a gTLD to vertically integrate, operate both the TLD
>>>> and the channel, relieves pressure on the gTLD operator to
>>>> keep prices low that typically come from competing registrars.
>>>>> Lower level of stability, security, and service for the
>>>> same reasons
>>>>> noted
>>>> above.
>>>>> Creation of complex structures and relationships will be
>>>> difficult or
>>>> impossible to enforce. ICANN will have several new compliance
>>>> issues to deal with regarding dozens and likely hundreds of
>>>> new gTLDs - IPv6, DNSSEC, new IP protection mechanisms/tools,
>>>> and possibly other new rules regarding malicious conduct.
>>>> Compliance is not merely a matter of money, there is a
>>>> practical limit to what ICANN the organization or community
>>>> can optimally keep up with.
>>>>> 100% vertical integration - or anything goes - negates the
>>>>> justification
>>>> for registrar accreditation and for consensus policy. Only
>>>> minimal technical requirements on DNS provisioning and
>>>> resolution services would be needed.
>>>>> Lack of innovation - vertical integration or high levels of
>>>>> co-ownership
>>>> only further entrench the incumbent registries and
>>>> registrars, leaving little incentive for new service
>>>> providers (back end, registrars, etc.) to be created.
>>>>> Note that this is not a comprehensive list of the harms I
>>>> believe are
>>>> likely.
>>>>> Tim
>>>>> 
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>>> From: Jeff Eckhaus<eckhaus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Date: Mon, August 02, 2010 1:56 pm
>>>>> To: Kathy Kleiman<kKleiman@xxxxxxx>, "Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx"
>>>>> <Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kathy ,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for adding to the list, would be great if you could add some
>>>> explanation on how these harms are a result of allowing VI or CO.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Kathy Kleiman [mailto:kKleiman@xxxxxxx]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:49 AM
>>>>> To: Jeff Eckhaus; Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft - Registrant Harms
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> I appreciate Jeff E. taking the first crack at this
>>>> difficult issue. I
>>>>> am
>>>> still reviewing his Summary of Harms, but wanted to note that
>>>> one category seems to be missing - and "Registrant
>>>> Harms/Consumer Protections." I realize that these issue may
>>>> be implicit in other points, but I think we should definitely
>>>> make them explicit.
>>>>> As a first stab under "Registrant Harms/Consumer
>>>> Protections" I would
>>>>> include:
>>>>> - Reduced choice, access and availability of domain names
>>>>> - Higher prices for domain names
>>>>> - Reduced access to registrars (who might operate in registrants'
>>>>> language, currency and customs)
>>>>> - No clear avenue for compliance enforcement by those who are
>>>>> concerned
>>>> about violations
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kathy Kleiman
>>>>> Director of Policy
>>>>> .ORG The Public Interest Registry
>>>>> Direct: +1 703 889-5756 Mobile: +1 703 371-6846
>>>>> 
>>>>> Visit us online!
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Eckhaus
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 2:02 PM
>>>>> To: 'Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx'
>>>>> Subject: [gnso-vi-feb10] Harms Project Draft
>>>>> 
>>>>> All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have made my first pass at drafting the harms that have been
>>>>> mentioned,
>>>> discussed, presented, whispered since the beginning of the VI
>>>> discussions a few years ago. I believe I have captured most
>>>> of the harms but this list is not final or complete, just a
>>>> draft and a start. I have used ICANN presentations, DAG
>>>> comments, and other GNSO lists as well as one on one
>>>> discussion. I have copied some of the main sources of the
>>>> harms list in the document itself and have the links if
>>>> anybody cares to read the complete source documents.
>>>>> I specifically did not mention market power or list harms that are
>>>> exclusive to market power, but that was just a choice I made,
>>>> if others want to add on to the list, please feel free,
>>>> remember this is brainstorming mode.
>>>>> The one harm I did specifically leave out is the strategy
>>>> of auctions
>>>>> of
>>>> premium names or the initial holding back of reserved names.
>>>> The decision to hold back premium names and auctions is an
>>>> action by the Registry will occur regardless of VI/CO and is
>>>> not a consequence or result of VI/CO. You can read the recent
>>>> TLD strategy put out by Afilias (RACK supporter) here where
>>>> they say this is an important strategy in launching your TLD.
>>>> http://www.circleid.com/posts/new_tld_application_tip_launch_strategie
>>>>> s/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> If someone feels there is some way an auction can be influenced or
>>>>> altered
>>>> due to VI then please add that to the list, since that could
>>>> be a potential harm.
>>>>> That being said, I would like to reiterate that this is
>>>> brainstorming
>>>>> on
>>>> the harms and would like you to add to this list, if
>>>> necessary, but please no deletions. Once complete we can work
>>>> on editing, ranking, sorting, predicting and deciding if
>>>> these are harms at all, harms related to Vertical
>>>> Integration, only in your own TLD and whatever other
>>>> mechanisms we choose.
>>>>> Have great weekend everyone
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jeff Eckhaus
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Volker A. Greimann
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