Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

[Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Kristine,

yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the 
Internic site.
Here is the transfer-related page:

http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer

This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance 
action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees 
much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system 
behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process.
Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason 
that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their 
rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause 
that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned 
that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some 
registrants.
With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first 
need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of 
action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current 
processes that fit the bill perfectly.
Volker


> Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their 
> Registrar?  Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but 
> I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it).    Perhaps, 
> if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes 
> (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure 
> ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of 
> complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a 
> recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute 
> process for Registrant disputes.
> But I think we have to answer the question.  It may be that this stuff 
> doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are 
> the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no 
> recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional 
> issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP 
> arise.  We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What 
> about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the 
> Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"?
> Kristine
>
> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] 
> *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM
> *To:* Mike O'Connor
> *Cc:* gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
> Hi Mike,
>
>     i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in
>     violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant
>     to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due
>     process in a dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as
>     an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series
>     of IRTP PDPs was launched.
>
> In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN 
> compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar.
> In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access 
> to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see 
> that this process is "due" to registrants.
> i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
> position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to 
> leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on 
> Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler 
> one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm 
> not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation 
> where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no 
> recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
> A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his 
> registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all 
> consensus policies):
> http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
>
> Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process 
> violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the 
> violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the 
> registrants issue.
> Best regards,
>
> Volker
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. 
> They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not 
> blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in 
> the first place.
> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to 
> initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another 
> story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant 
> to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service 
> (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
> Volker
>
>     i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence
>     "give registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.
>      the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from
>     that process by their registrar.  the hope here is to provide an
>     appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant
>     disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting the
>     bar for that appeal pretty high.
>
>     On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann
>     <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process
>     dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed
>     to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer
>     dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and
>     registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will
>     result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
>
>     If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be
>     sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and
>     if necessary invoke the current process.
>
>     What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate
>     process between registrant and former registrant regarding the
>     ownership of a domain name makes sense.
>
>     I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music
>     should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to
>     be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as
>     with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but
>     in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the
>     respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
>
>     Volker
>
>         Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP
>         process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over
>         an IRTP issue
>
>         ·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve
>         matters between themselves
>
>         In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant
>         as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the
>         registrant to take the issue to Compliance
>
>         Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into
>         the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
>
>         If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal,
>         with fees paid by registrars, as normal
>
>         If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off
>         to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
>
>         PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com
>         <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter,
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>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
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>       
>
>     Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
>       
>
>     Volker A. Greimann
>
>     - Rechtsabteilung -
>
>       
>
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> - Rechtsabteilung -
>   
> Key-Systems GmbH
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- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
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--------------------------------------------

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Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
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Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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