RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

["Dorrain, Kristine" <kdorrain@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks Volker.

On the topic of jurisdiction, it's my understanding that it's the lesser of the 
evils. I am sure there is a queue waiting to bust that provision open.  :)

Kristine

From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:03 AM
To: Dorrain, Kristine; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP


Hi Kristine,

yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic 
site.

Here is the transfer-related page:

http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer

This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action 
against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use 
than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN 
compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process.

Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that 
INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate 
from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to 
agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction 
may not even be desirable for some registrants.

With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to 
seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is 
needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit 
the bill perfectly.

Volker

Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their 
Registrar?  Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't 
think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it).    Perhaps, if Compliance is 
the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a 
slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed 
to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee 
is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing 
system/dispute process for Registrant disputes.

But I think we have to answer the question.  It may be that this stuff doesn't 
go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of 
wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the 
court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost 
issues that predated the UDRP arise.  We need to have some sort of answer to 
the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or 
where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"?

Kristine

From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx> 
[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM
To: Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Hi Mike,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of 
the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is 
presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between 
registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the 
misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, 
where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar.
In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a 
process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this 
process is "due" to registrants.


i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best position to 
figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion 
up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach 
since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that 
fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in 
their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars 
with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar 
violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies):
http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer

Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process 
violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating 
registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue.

Best regards,

Volker





On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:



Hi Mike,

you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are 
not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the 
registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.

If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a 
proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs 
to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a 
registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the 
process).

Volker


i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to 
ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar.  
the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar 
and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting 
the bar for that appeal pretty high.


On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:



I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its 
purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process 
violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between 
registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between 
two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted 
parties.

If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient 
incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the 
current process.

What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between 
registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes 
sense.

I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for 
the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be 
prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" 
clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the 
complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

Volker


Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases 
when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue

·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters 
between themselves

In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to 
initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to 
Compliance

Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a 
filter to prevent frivolous filings

If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid 
by registrars, as normal

If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the 
registrant wants to proceed.



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