RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

["Dorrain, Kristine" <kdorrain@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be 
just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this warrants an 
entirely new policy or none at all.  We don't need to reinvent the 
Rules....UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is 
entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  :)

Kristine

From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf 
Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Hi James,

excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not 
actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star 
witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a 
party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.

This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for 
registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to 
a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that 
the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future 
revision of that policy.

Best,

Volker

Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the various 
scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately 
deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP.

For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is 
in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the 
legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If its 
a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new 
TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the 
registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any process 
where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without 
merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.

Thanks-

J.



From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
To: Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>" 
<gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

hi Volker,

i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of 
the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is 
presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between 
registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the 
misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.

i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best position to 
figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion 
up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach 
since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that 
fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in 
their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars 
with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.


On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:


Hi Mike,

you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are 
not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the 
registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.

If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a 
proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs 
to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a 
registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the 
process).

Volker

i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to 
ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar.  
the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar 
and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting 
the bar for that appeal pretty high.


On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:


I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its 
purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process 
violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between 
registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between 
two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted 
parties.

If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient 
incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the 
current process.

What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between 
registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes 
sense.

I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for 
the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be 
prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" 
clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the 
complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

Volker


Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases 
when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue

·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters 
between themselves

In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to 
initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to 
Compliance

Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a 
filter to prevent frivolous filings

If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid 
by registrars, as normal

If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the 
registrant wants to proceed.



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