RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Actual Informal Statistics for .BIZ on Tasting
Tim, I don't have this information readily available. Will try to get this detail in the next few weeks. We have very elaborate data retention, archiving and escrow systems in place and have all of this data from the beginning of the launch of biz. For a reputable established registry operator, the cost of this really should not be an issue. Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services & Business Development NeuStar, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Ruiz Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:40 AM To: gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Actual Informal Statistics for .BIZ on Tasting Thanks Jeff. Very helpful. Another analysis from Registries that would useful: 1. What are the data retention and escrow requirements (ICANN and otherwise) for registries with regards to names that are registered, even for a few days? Do registries need to archive that data for a period of time - days, months, years? Does that data need to be escrowed for a period of time? 2. If yes to either or both retention and escrow, how would the storage needs of those requirements affect registries if/when millions of names are registered and deleted as they are with tasting activities? How does that differ between a thin registry (VeriSign for example) and a thick registry (NeuStar, Afilias, etc.)? 3. What is the cost affect of those storage needs and how might that factor into the wholesale price of registrations, renewals, and transfers overall? How much of the wholesale price is attributable to, or will be attributable to, supporting tasting activities? I think it is valid to ask and understand what additional costs, if any, we will all be paying to continue to support this activity. Based on the data that Olof and Patrick put together and charted, it is clear that tasting is on a continued up trend. It is not burning out as some have been claiming will happen, since 2005. What are we, or what we will, all be paying to support this activity, and what are benefits to us all (not just the tasters) that justifies those additional costs, if any? Tim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [gnso-dt-wg] Actual Informal Statistics for .BIZ on Tasting From: "Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx> Date: Thu, July 26, 2007 7:50 am To: "Tim Ruiz" <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Patrick Jones" <patrick.jones@xxxxxxxxx> Cc: <gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx> I have to agree with Tim here re Kiting. Here are some informal stats for .biz In .biz, there were between 20,000 - 45,000 domain names per month that were registered and deleted between January and June 2007 (for a total of approximately 195,000 domains). Of that that 195,000 domains: * 183,935 names were not re-registered and deleted. In other words, they could have been re-registered on a permanent basis, but not tasted again. * 402 names were deleted and re-registered more than 10 times total during that 6 month period (**probable but not confirmed kiting) * 1503 names were deleted or re-registered 4 to 10 times total during that 6 month period (*possible kiting, but not probable) * 9286 names were deleted or re-registered 2 or 3 times total during that 6 month period (but that may not have been consecutively) Therefore, 0.21% of the total tasted names were "probable" kiting. Even taking into account the names that were possibly "kiting", that only brings the percentage up to 0.98%. So, at least for .biz, "kiting" is really a non-issue. I suspect you will find similar results from other registries. We would have to do a deeper analysis to see whether (i) the re-registrations were consecutive and (ii) whether they eventually became permanent registrations to more accurately assess whether the numbers above were actual kiting, but this should clear up some misconceptions. Hopefully, other registries will follow suit. Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services & Business Development NeuStar, Inc. From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Ruiz Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:43 PM To: Patrick Jones Cc: gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts Kiting is a sympton of tasting, plain and simple. Some small percentage of the million or more names a registrar may taste (for themselves or their client) will get some traffic. That registrar or client will want to taste those again to verify/recheck the results. I highly doubt any of the so called kiters really believe or intend that they can kite name indefinately. Other names may appear to be kited but it is just that two or more registrars may be getting their data on names to taste from the same or similar sources. So it will look like the name is being kited but that is not the actual intent. That could conceivably happen even within a registrar group where the left hand isn't necessarily aware of what the right hand is doing. There really isn't any need to be concerned with filtering out names already tasted by one of your other registrars because it doesn't cost anything to do it. All the data in the world isn't going to help you discern the difference. My point is that kiting is possible because tasting is possible. The real problems that our customers complain about, or that IP interests are concerned about occur because of the volume of tasting due to the fact that its free. There is no incentive to curb it, filter it, be thoughtful about it, etc. because it is entirely free no matter what the volume. Spending a lot of time debating kiting and digging up so called kiting stats (that won't really tell you anything concrete anyway) should only be considered *IF* it is decided that tasting is an Okay thing and should be allowed to continue. Then, and only then, does it make it any sense to debate and hash out other activities that can only occur if tasting is allowed to continue as is. IMHO, tasting isn't bad for our industry because of kiting. Kiting is just another example of why tasting is bad for our industry. Tim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts From: "Patrick Jones" <patrick.jones@xxxxxxxxx> Date: Wed, July 25, 2007 4:35 pm To: <gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx> I suspect that you are asking for information that can only be provided by the registries - this would be specialized data and it is not something that ICANN staff has. If a name is "re-registered" in one month, 3 months, 6 months or one year after the initial registration (and deletion after 5 days), how can you call that "kiting"? I think Jothan's comment earlier today was very helpful in drawing the distinction between "kiting" and tasting. See http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-dt-wg/msg00031.html. We should be distinguishing between the "intent not to pay! " ("kiting") vs "reviewing the suitability of a domain name" ("tasting"), and then looking for specific facts and research on how the five day add grace period may or may not be contributing to abuse. Patrick Patrick L. Jones Registry Liaison Manager Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers 4676 Admiralty Way, Suite 330 Marina del Rey, CA 90292 Tel: +1 310 301 3861 Fax: +1 310 823 8649 patrick.jones@xxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@icann! .org [mailto:owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Rodenbaugh Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:18 PM To: Neuman, Jeff; Paul Stahura; Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts I would say the data would be more relevant without restrictions of "re-registered more than say 3 times, each time immediately prior to the last" -- if it is done twice by related parties then I would consider it kiting, and it need not be necessarily immediate since I imagine some of the kiters are smart enough to wait and re-regis! ter after some time. I would like to know how many domains have been re-registered more than once and dropped during AGP, by any related registrar, within a year. Of course it is tough to define 'related registrar' and so maybe the best we can do is have the raw number of domains dropped in AGP and re-registered within another 5 days, one month, 3 mos., 6 mos. and one year? That wouldn't necessarily prove that all of those domains were kited, but may be useful info at least to show the maximum extent of kiting. Is this something ICANN Staff could possibly do, or would we need registries to provide custom data? Mike Rodenbaugh -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:! owner-gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:46 AM To: Paul Stahura; Danny Younger; Tim Ruiz; gnso-dt-wg@xxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [gnso-dt-wg] Collecting Facts I will see if I can dig up some stats for NeuStar....recognizing of course the amount of tasting in .biz is pretty much insignificant at this point compared to .com. Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. Sr. Director, Law, Advanced Services & Business Development NeuStar, Inc.