[gnso-vi-feb10] RE: A Call to Harms

["Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>]

It seems like I send this same e-mail out every week to you and to others 
asking for the harms.  Again, I know you personally do not agree with these and 
that is fine, but don't confuse that with the statement that they do not exist.


For those that do not want to open the attachment, I have reprinted below (this 
one was in response to a 4/16/10 post by Palage on audits being the 
solution...which is still what he is arguing)......

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Michael,



I would hope your support of 2 diametrically opposed proposals did not solely 
rely on the ability of ICANN to conduct an audit.  The harms have been 
expressed in the numerous papers posted by Register.com, Neustar, PIR, Afilias, 
IP Attorneys, and others over the past six months.  A number of the registrars 
and new TLD applicants clearly do not agree with those arguments, but that to 
me is irrelevant without actual in-depth study of the issues.



See:



http://forum.icann.org/lists/2gtld-guide/msg00033.html

http://www.icann.org/correspondence/lubsen-to-dengate-thrush-12oct09-en.pdf

http://www.icann.org/correspondence/maher-to-karklins-25sep09-en.pdf

http://www.icann.org/correspondence/raad-to-dengate-thrush-09sep09-en.pdf

http://www.icann.org/correspondence/raad-to-dengate-thrush-08may09-en.pdf

http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00001.html

http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00013.html

http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00020.html



Even the presentation in Sydney - 
http://syd.icann.org/files/meetings/sydney2009/presentation-vertical-separation-22jun09-en.pdf
  (much of which I disagree with) documented potential harms.



I did not want this group to delve into these issues because frankly some of us 
feel like VI/CO does have harmful effects, some do not.  We are not going to 
change minds here in this group.  We are trying to find compromise.  Simply 
bringing up these old arguments about the harms and benefits of integration is 
in my mind not a useful exercise until we can actually have real studies done 
by non-interested parties (which is a long term objective).



Best regards,





Jeffrey J. Neuman

Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Law & Policy




Jeffrey J. Neuman
Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Law & Policy

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From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Jeff Eckhaus
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:39 AM
To: Gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [gnso-vi-feb10] A Call to Harms

I have been reading the latest emails on the economists and the need for 
analysis of supposed harms and I would like to bring back an earlier request I 
made to the list. Could the people that are claiming there will be great harms 
if there is cross-ownership and vertical integration please list these 
potential harms so they could be analyzed by the group?

I am not asking for an analysis of these harms, but at least a small list or 
discussion of what the Registries believe will happen if we allow CO and VI. 
When asked by the group to discuss the benefits of CO, I put forward a 
presentation on the benefits of cross -ownership (attached here). I am only 
asking those who believe there will be some sort of harms to list those out.  
Then maybe we could have a substantive discussion on benefits vs. harms.

Every action will have harms and benefits. Having a speed limit of 60 mph (100 
km) is more dangerous than everyone having to drive at 20 mph but the benefits 
of that speed and the chances of harm outweigh the need for everyone to crawl 
on the road.  I would like this group to at least to be able to have these 
discussions


Thanks


Jeff Eckhaus

--- Begin Message ---

• To: Michael Palage <michael@xxxxxxxxxx>
• Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] RE: Innovative Proposal - Jeff E response
• From: "Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>
• Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:12:45 -0400

Michael,

I would hope your support of 2 diametrically opposed proposals did not solely 
rely on the ability of ICANN to conduct an audit.  The harms have been 
expressed in the numerous papers posted by Register.com, Neustar, PIR, Afilias, 
IP Attorneys, and others over the past six months.  A number of the registrars 
and new TLD applicants clearly do not agree with those arguments, but that to 
me is irrelevant without actual in-depth study of the issues.

See:

http://forum.icann.org/lists/2gtld-guide/msg00033.html
http://www.icann.org/correspondence/lubsen-to-dengate-thrush-12oct09-en.pdf
http://www.icann.org/correspondence/maher-to-karklins-25sep09-en.pdf
http://www.icann.org/correspondence/raad-to-dengate-thrush-09sep09-en.pdf
http://www.icann.org/correspondence/raad-to-dengate-thrush-08may09-en.pdf
http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00001.html
http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00013.html
http://forum.icann.org/lists/crai-report/msg00020.html

Even the presentation in Sydney - 
http://syd.icann.org/files/meetings/sydney2009/presentation-vertical-separation-22jun09-en.pdf
  (much of which I disagree with) documented potential harms.

I did not want this group to delve into these issues because frankly some of us 
feel like VI/CO does have harmful effects, some do not.  We are not going to 
change minds here in this group.  We are trying to find compromise.  Simply 
bringing up these old arguments about the harms and benefits of integration is 
in my mind not a useful exercise until we can actually have real studies done 
by non-interested parties (which is a long term objective).

Best regards,


Jeffrey J. Neuman
Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Law & Policy


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-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Palage [mailto:michael@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:26 PM
To: Neuman, Jeff
Cc: Jeff Eckhaus; gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] RE: Innovative Proposal - Jeff E response

Jeff,

So what was so bad with the original safegaurds in the 1999 NSI/VRSN
agreement that resulted in NSI going from 100% market share to under
40%  in like three years. The GoDaddys, eNoms and 1 and 1s of the
world have done well from my perspective.

I think Milton, Jeff E and I are looking for actual harms, so that we
can address them. Prior to Seoul I supported Afilias/Neustar/PIR's
position because DemandMedia opposed any audit. Given that they have
made an important concession on this point, let's talk about how to
give the audit teeth instead of those that oppose an idea without
providing any specific examples of harm that cannot be addressed
through an audit/complaince program.

Best regards,

Michael

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:32 AM, "Neuman, Jeff" <Jeff.Neuman@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

>
> Neustar's proposal also contains audit rights, but audit rights
> alone is not a sufficient safeguard.  If you don't believe me, just
> ask those that remember the old VeriSign/NSI days.  Point being that
> we need to get the system to one where the community trusts both
> ICANN and the players before we rely on audits alone.  We are
> nowhere near there.
>
> ICANN has always had audit rights with registrars, but if you ask
> any IP attorney, business and law enforcement person that has
> followed the ICANN world in the last 10 years, whether the audit
> rights have secured their confidence in the registrar system and
> ICANN's ability to do compliance, I would bet that 9 out of 10
> people say no.
>
> To take another analogy outside of the ICANN world for all the
> attorneys on the list, name me one contract where the only
> protections built in are audit rights?  Audit rights are the belts
> and suspenders on obligations, roles and responsibilities.  They are
> not the obligations, roles and responsibilities themselves.
>
> Jeffrey J. Neuman
> Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Law & Policy
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only
> for the use of the recipient(s) named above and may contain
> confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the
> intended recipient you have received this e-mail message in error
> and any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please notify us immediately and delete the
> original message.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-
> feb10@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Eckhaus
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:19 PM
> To: 'gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] RE: Innovative Proposal - Jeff E response
>
>
> Ron,
>
> I have read your points below and believe it or not I think we may
> be moving along the same direction.
>
> You state that back when the registry misdeeds were happening there
> was no real oversight or compliance and they did not honor its
> duties and responsibilities. They were doing bad things that
> attempted to harm the consumer.
>
> Now, what if there was "contractual power"? What if there were
> audits and checks to review the actions of the registry and
> safeguards in place for consumers and penalties in place for the
> registry? Do you believe that the bad activities would have been
> curbed ?
>
> Or, were they such bad actors that no amount of sanctions would have
> stopped them?
>
>
> My point being that the MMA proposal and my proposal contain audits
> and checks and this is an area I would like to pursue to make sure
> consumers are not harmed while allowing cross ownership.
> One of the ways forward is for people with direct experience with
> these exploits and disgraceful actions to list them so we can
> protect against them.
>
> I just believe it is a more sensible way forward, then saying we
> need to build a moat or a wall around it.
>
>
> Jeff Eckhaus
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-
> feb10@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ron Andruff
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:34 AM
> To: 'Michele Neylon :: Blacknight'; 'gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx'
> Subject: RE: [gnso-vi-feb10] RE: Innovative Proposal - Jeff E response
>
>
> In my view, Kathy makes a very persuasive argument.  Having launched a
> registry with the same noble intentions ["That's an exclusive and
> privileged
> position, and in our community, it includes duties and
> responsibilities."] I
> saw firsthand how those that took over management of that registry
> tried --
> and continue -- to exploit it in every possible manner solely for
> their own
> personal gain.  So that is one disgraceful and clear example of harm.
>
> If ICANN compliance had enough 'contractual power' today, that
> registry,
> IMHO, would have long ago been put up for re-delegation to a new
> operator
> that would indeed honor its duties and responsibilities to its
> community and
> ICANN.
>
> While some might dismiss PIR's comments as not showing tangible
> examples of
> harm, I and others are well-aware of how badly greedy actors can
> abuse data,
> registrants, and the very communities their TLDs are 'intended to
> serve'.
> Had VI been possible when the current operators took control, the
> damage
> that is being done (both to the affected community as well as to all
> those
> who believe in the institution of ICANN) would have been magnitudes
> worse
> than it is today.
>
> RA
>
> Ronald N. Andruff
> RNA Partners, Inc.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-vi-
> feb10@xxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Michele Neylon :: Blacknight
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:36 AM
> To: gnso-vi-feb10@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-vi-feb10] RE: Innovative Proposal - Jeff E response
>
>
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 04:17, Kathy Kleiman wrote:
>
>>
>> Among other forms of valuable domain name data, we have:
>> <snip>
>
> Milton's reply addresses this very comprehensively
>
>
>
>> Goals of a Registry: Security and Stability of the TLD and the
>> Internet.
>>
>> Overall, I find the goals of the registries compelling: it is the
>> security and stability of their TLDs and the DNS space. That is the
>> passion and preoccupation of PIR, and the whole of the Registry
>> Constituency. In a comment to be filed by the Registry Constituency
>> in
>> the DNS-Cert proceeding, due tomorrow, the Registry Constituency will
>> together submit:
>>
>> "TLD Registry Operators play a critical role in the secure and stable
>> operation of the DNS and we welcome the opportunity to discuss
>> initiatives to improve DNS security, stability, and resiliency.
>> Registries' infrastructures, personnel, expertise, technology,
>> investments, and operational practices have underpinned the secure
>> and
>> stable  functioning of the Internet as it has scaled globally over
>> the
>> past two decades.  Indeed, registries are on the "front lines" of
>> defense against a variety of security threats that occur on a daily
>> basis.  As such, registries have developed expertise in addressing a
>> broad range of threats.  Registries have successfully coordinated
>> with
>> other actors in the DNS and Internet services spaces to address
>> threats
>> ranging from simple operator errors to those caused by
>> sophisticated bad
>> actors.  Registries look forward to consulting with ICANN on these
>> important issues and to engaging with other actors to further develop
>> these initiatives."
>>
>> We have a system of separations that works: Registries address the
>> security and stability of  their TLD and the Internet. Registrars
>> work
>> with registrants - and find the boldest, most innovative ways to
>> connect
>> people, organizations and business with the domain names and the
>> domain
>> name services they need. The growth, the brilliance and dramatic
>> changes
>> of the registrar field are extraordinary.
>>
>> But it was done within a DNS system of checks and balances and of
>> requirements for equal access, equal treatment, and equal information
>> (with a further separation of ownership to back it up). That too has
>> served us, and the Internet community, well. Thus, we strongly
>> support
>> extending the system of structural separation to the new gTLDs.
>
>
> Sorry, but I can't see any answer in there at all.
>
> You (PIR) are saying that stability and security will be harmed.
> When asked
> how, you come back with nothing of any actual consequence that
> answers the
> question.
>
> You instead go on about how wonderful you all are and how much you
> care
> about "stuff".
>
> You don't actually show any clear examples of real, tangible, harm
> and how
> it could be done to anyone if the current status quo were changed.
>
> Regards
>
> Michele
>
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> ICANN Accredited Registrar
> http://www.blacknight.com/
> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> http://mneylon.tel
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> US: 213-233-1612
> UK: 0844 484 9361
> Locall: 1850 929 929
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> -------------------------------
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>
>
>

--- End Message ---