I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid
domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name,
namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark
owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner
did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the
domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the
ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are
outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP
procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute
resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to
trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain
judicially.
The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the
circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and
registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a
registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where
the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and
only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not
currently available.
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
emailkevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
skype kevimundo
webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
*To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;James M.
Bladel <mailto:jbladel@xxxxxxxxxxx>;Mike O'Connor
<mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
*Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence
of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
I agree.
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
*To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
*Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence
of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between
the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than
between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between
parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may
want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these
issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in
preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the
question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an
independant panel.
Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the
UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble
opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We
don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just
create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would
be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
*From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx]*On
Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
*To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
*Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that
sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now --
registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is
that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to
the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the
information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are
better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another
process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may
not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We
could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded
to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of
that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to
capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial”
area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s
request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of
the registrant is in question, or that they cannot
substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant
(or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a
scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or
even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a
matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could
be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a
registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe
is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
*From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx>>
*Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
*To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>"
<gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>>
*Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that
sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now --
registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is
either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow
the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying
the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars.
this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the
misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the
best position to figure out the best way to get this done and
i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James'
"put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that
seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything
that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of
leaving registrants in their current situation where these
decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse
for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of
the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating
a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not
have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar
to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is
another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of
the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to
charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle
the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your
sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's
not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants
are not blocked from that process by their registrar.
the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those
cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether
a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for
that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP
process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute
process designed to deal with process violations and will
turn it into a transfer dispute process between
registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a
civil conflict between two parties. This will result in
increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there
will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to
call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an
alternate process between registrant and former
registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes
sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the
music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant
wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to
pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser
pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will
remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent
cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the
TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their
registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't
resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and
registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide
a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for
registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent
frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds
as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it --
it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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