Re: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report

[Bob Bruen <bruen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi,

There is serious underlying problem in that ICANN does not own the whois 
data nor does have it have any authority over it. This problem came to the 
forefront several years ago with the RegisterFly incident. The whois data 
was then escrowed for a while (Iron Mountain), but only with the 
cooperation of the registrars/registries. I am not sure, but I think the 
escrow program is no longer happening.
The registrars/registries appear to be the authority over the data, not 
because of their relationship with their customers, but just because they
are the authority.

             --bob

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Mike O'Connor wrote:

> hi Ray,
>
> i think i agree -- i was thinking the word in the database/technical way 
> when Tim originally raised the point -- whereas there is indeed a 
> broader definition relating to who has authority over the data.  i can 
> imagine a scenario where the authoritative data store (in a database 
> sense) is with the registry, but the registrars are the entities that 
> have authority over that data due to their relationship with customers.
> i think we need clearer words, and we also need to pick which one we 
> intend.  i'm stuck on what those clearer words would be, but i think 
> that may be because of my unfamiliarity with the nuance here.  are there 
> two good words that highlight the difference?
> once we've got the right words, we've then got an interesting choice to 
> make as to which one.  clearly, a key "scope" discussion that needs to 
> get resolved before we wrap up the chartering.
> thanks,
>
> mikey
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2012, at 10:48 AM, "Ray Fassett" <ray@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that Mikey’s suggestion of “adding something like this”: 
> > Other implications of migrating the "authoritative" repository for 
> > registrant data from Registrars to the Registry has had the effect of 
> > us identifying a “vast majority” vs. those not part of the vast 
> > majority.  If so, I think this means the scope of the issues may have 
> > the result of the WG segregating a minority of gTLD’s from the majority 
> > of gTLD’s in going about their work on the issues.  Personally, I think 
> > the word “authoritative”, and trying to fit this word into the Charter 
> > in some common and understood context, has complicated things.
> > Ray
> >
> > From: owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx 
> > [mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Metalitz, Steven
> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:44 AM
> > To: 'Volker Greimann'; Drazek, Keith
> > Cc: Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx PDP DT
> > Subject: RE: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report
> >
> > Volker makes the important point that this issue already exists, it is 
> > not created by a move to thick Whois.  And what Keith says about a 
> > registry that “has always had thick whois” is equally true about any 
> > registry that “has not always had thick Whois” – “The registrants in 
> > those TLDs gave their consent for the data transfer upon registration 
> > of their domain name(s).” This is true of every single gTLD domain name 
> > in existence, because of the RAA provision that requires registrars to 
> > obtain this consent.
> > Similarly, the issue of “authoritativeness” of Whois data in the thick 
> > registry setting already exists in the vast majority of gTLD 
> > registries.  I appreciate Tim’s view that perhaps registrars that 
> > service thick registries should not be required to maintain Whois data 
> > any more, but that would require a change in the RAA and clearly seems 
> > out of scope for this PDP.
> > In sum I think the draft adequately captures the scope of the issues that the 
> > Working Group needs to address.
> >
> > Steve Metalitz
> >
> >
> >
> > From: owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx 
> > [mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:23 AM
> > To: Drazek, Keith
> > Cc: Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx PDP DT
> > Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> >
> > I agree that cross-border transfers of data would be an issue for 
> > registries switching to a thick model, however all registrants have 
> > allready agreed to the publication of the data, and in many cases also 
> > to a transfer abroad due to many registrar policies having been written 
> > with both thick and thin models in mind. Registrants also agreed to be 
> > bound by policy changes. Still, the issue is not negligible. Maybe it 
> > could be solved by the registry by setting up data centers in such 
> > jurisdictions where data transfer would be problematic, and the central 
> > register only pointing to the geographic location of the domain, just 
> > as currently they point to the individual registrars?
> > This is an issue that needs more thought.
> >
> > Volker
> >
> > Hi Volker,
> >
> > Thanks for the insight. It sounds like there could be multiple models 
> > of Whois Data authority, which seems appropriate.
> > Another question around the “authoritative” issue concerns privacy laws 
> > and anticipated cross-border transfers of data.
> > For a TLD that has always had Thick Whois, the rules were established 
> > (and presumably accepted by the registrants in their registration 
> > agreement with the registrar) from their initial launch date. The 
> > registrants in those TLDs gave their consent for the data transfer upon 
> > registration of their domain name(s).
> > However, transferring personal Whois data for 100+ million 
> > registrations from scores of international jurisdictions to a single 
> > entity could raise additional privacy concerns. The question of which 
> > entity in which jurisdiction has “authority” over the Whois data may 
> > need to be considered by the WG and should not necessarily be presumed 
> > to be the registry in every case, dependent upon national laws and the 
> > range of service offerings across various registries.
> > Thanks, Keith
> >
> >
> > <image001.gif>
> > Keith Drazek
> > Director of Policy
> > kdrazek@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > m: +1-571-377-9182
> > 21345 Ridgetop Circle Dulles, VA 20166
> >
> > VerisignInc.com
> > <image003.gif>
> >
> >
> > From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:05 PM
> > To: Drazek, Keith
> > Cc: Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx PDP DT
> > Subject: Re: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> >
> > I see your point, but I do not believe it to be as much of an issue as 
> > you make of it. The registry in any thick whois TLD is the central 
> > repository of all whois data, regardly of where it was registered. The 
> > registrar is responsible to provide the data to the registry. 
> > Verification can be assumed and performed by either. In the new RAA, 
> > registrars will most likely assume some of the responsibility, but the 
> > launch of .XXX has show this can also be performed on a registry level. 
> > In fact, some ccTLDs such as .US also perform routine validations on 
> > the registration requirements.
> > On the other hand, we have now seen cases where a "thick registry" has 
> > made modifications to the registration based on court orders or other 
> > events, which were not always notified to the registrar, i.e. left the 
> > registrar database out of synch with the registrar database, yet these 
> > changes were authoritative as far as the ownership of the domain is 
> > concerned. Whereas registrars must always update the registry to effect 
> > a change of data in a thick TLD. In other words, as the registry 
> > database is the last word on the data, it should be the authoritative 
> > source.
> > Best,
> >
> > Volker
> >
> >
> > Tim raises an important point, including the question of whether registries or 
> > registrars are authoritative for Whois data.
> >
> > I have concerns about a registry being authoritative for Whois data 
> > when it has no direct connection to the registrant. As discussed on our 
> > last call, the registry receives Whois data from the Registrar, not 
> > from the registrant. As such, the registry has no way of independently 
> > confirming/verifying/validating that the data is accurate. I think this 
> > distinction becomes more of an issue if there’s a future requirement 
> > for validation or verification of registrant Whois data, as requested 
> > by the GAC.
> > Ultimately, having a Thick Whois database at the registry level only 
> > centralizes the data…it doesn’t make it any more accurate, validated, 
> > verified, etc. since registries simply accept what is submitted by the 
> > registrars.
> > I understand that some of the existing thick registries may already be 
> > authoritative for their TLD’s Whois data, so perhaps we can benefit 
> > from their experience.
> > This issue may or may not fit into the draft charter, but it’s probably worth 
> > discussing further on our next call.
> >
> > Thanks, Keith
> >
> > <image001.gif>
> > Keith Drazek
> > Director of Policy
> > kdrazek@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > m: +1-571-377-9182
> > 21345 Ridgetop Circle Dulles, VA 20166
> >
> > VerisignInc.com
> > <image003.gif>
> >
> >
> > From: owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx 
> > [mailto:owner-gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tim Ruiz
> > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 12:27 PM
> > To: Mike O'Connor; Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx PDP DT
> > Subject: RE: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report
> >
> > Thanks Mikey,
> >
> > Sorry I haven't been able to make the calls, one thing or another has 
> > come up. I think the current draft and changes look good but I do have 
> > one comment/concern.
> > It seems to assumes if all regitries are thick that registrars will 
> > still be required to maintain a set of WHOIS data themselves. However, 
> > if the registries are all thick and authoritative for WHOIS data then I 
> > see no reason why a registrar should continue to be required to 
> > maintain a duplicate set of the data, especially since it will also be 
> > escrowed by the registry. I would think a number of registrars would 
> > find it useful and cost effective to simply use a registry's 
> > authoritative data instead of trying to maintain it themselves. And I 
> > can easily see an effort by registrars to change the RAA and/or 
> > policies to reflect that. So I don't think the PDP group should assume 
> > that both registrars and registries will continue to maintain the data. 
> > It may be good to note that possibility. Or alternatively, that may be 
> > a question they want to consider. I don't think it would necessarily be 
> > out of scope since it is tightly associated with whether all registries 
> > are thick or not, but others may have a different opinion. Best, Tim
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [gnso-thickwhois-dt] weekly status report
> > From: "Mike O'Connor" <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Sat, September 22, 2012 10:03 am
> > To: "Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx PDP DT"
> > <Gnso-thickwhois-dt@xxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > hi all,
> >
> > here's the status report for this week. i *think* we're wringing out 
> > the last issues in the draft. so this would be a good time to take a 
> > look at the latest version. what seems to be working well is to run 
> > your ideas through the list so then we can work through them on the 
> > call. here's a link to the draft i pushed out after the last call.
> > http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-thickwhois-dt/doc3QzSkLIUIQ.doc
> >
> > and here's the status report. i'm hoping we can get to a draft we can push out 
> > for a consensus call by the end of the meeting on Thursday.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > mikey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
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> > Key-Systems GmbH
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> >
> > --
> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - Rechtsabteilung -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> > www.key-systems.net/facebook
> > www.twitter.com/key_systems
> >
> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
> > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
> > Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
> > Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
> > nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
> > telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - legal department -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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> >
> > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
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> > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
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