Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

["Kevin Erdman" <krerdman@xxxxxxxx>]

I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name 
owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a 
domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner.  The basis of the complaint 
is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but 
rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation.  The facts and 
circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark 
infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries.  
The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute 
resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark 
infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.

The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of 
the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might 
be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected.  I 
think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar 
without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy 
is not currently available.
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
skype kevimundo
web www.reichelip.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: Dorrain, Kristine 
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor 
Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx 
Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

I agree.

 

From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

 

The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and 
the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the 
TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the 
legitimate owner of a domain name. 

So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to 
look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. 

In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for 
the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate 
ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.

Volker

  Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be 
just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this warrants an 
entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs 
Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused 
and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  J

   

  Kristine

   

  From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Volker Greimann
  Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
  To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
  Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
  Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

   

  Hi James,

  excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is 
not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a 
star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a 
party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. 

  This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for 
registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to 
a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that 
the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future 
revision of that policy.

  Best,

  Volker




    Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the 
various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can 
legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.

     

    For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant 
is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the 
legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If its 
a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new 
TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the 
registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any process 
where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without 
merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.

     

    Thanks—

     

    J.

     

     

     

    From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
    Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
    To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx" <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

     

    hi Volker, 

     

    i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation 
of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is 
presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between 
registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the 
misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.

     

    i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave 
that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to 
comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live 
with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of 
leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made 
"for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except 
worldwide courts.

     

     

    On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:






    Hi Mike,

    you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They 
are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the 
registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. 

    If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a 
proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs 
to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a 
registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the 
process).

    Volker




      i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to 
ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar.  
the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar 
and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting 
the bar for that appeal pretty high. 

       

       

      On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:






      I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes 
its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process 
violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between 
registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between 
two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted 
parties.

      If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient 
incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the 
current process.

      What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process 
between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain 
name makes sense. 

      I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should 
pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he 
should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser 
pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the 
complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

      Volker

         

        Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in 
cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue 

        ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve 
matters between themselves 

        In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to 
whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue 
to Compliance 

        Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the 
policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings 

        If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with 
fees paid by registrars, as normal 

        If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court 
if the registrant wants to proceed.

         

         

        PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: 
OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) 

         







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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen 
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