Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

[Holly Raiche <h.raiche@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Well said Kevin

Holly
On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:

> I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain 
> name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use 
> of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner.  The basis of the 
> complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the 
> domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation.  The 
> facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the 
> trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and 
> registries.  The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of 
> the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to 
> trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain 
> judicially.
>  
> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of 
> the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there 
> might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want 
> corrected.  I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or 
> a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios 
> where a remedy is not currently available.
> ____________________________
> Kevin R Erdman
> Reichel IP LLP
> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
> Indianapolis, IN 46202
> voice 317.677.0689
> fax 317.454.1349
> email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> skype kevimundo
> web www.reichelip.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
> From: Dorrain, Kristine
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor
> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>  
> I agree.
>  
> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>  
> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP 
> and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and 
> the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be 
> the legitimate owner of a domain name. 
> 
> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to 
> look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. 
> 
> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for 
> the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate 
> ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
> 
> Volker
> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be 
> just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this warrants an 
> entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to reinvent the 
> Rules….UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is 
> entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  J
>  
> Kristine
>  
> From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of Volker Greimann
> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>  
> Hi James,
> 
> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is 
> not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is 
> a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but 
> not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. 
> 
> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for 
> registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated 
> to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation 
> that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future 
> revision of that policy.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Volker
> 
> 
> 
> Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the various 
> scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can 
> legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
>  
> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant 
> is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the 
> legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If 
> its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the 
> shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and 
> the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any 
> process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe 
> is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
>  
> Thanks—
>  
> J.
>  
>  
>  
> From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx" <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>  
> hi Volker,
>  
> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation 
> of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or 
> is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between 
> registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the 
> misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
>  
> i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best position 
> to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that 
> discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" 
> approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with 
> anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving 
> registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for 
> them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide 
> courts.
>  
>  
> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They 
> are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the 
> registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. 
> 
> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a 
> proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way 
> needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right 
> of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle 
> the process).
> 
> Volker
> 
> 
> 
> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
> registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to 
> ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. 
>  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where 
> registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm 
> fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
>  
>  
> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its 
> purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process 
> violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between 
> registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between 
> two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted 
> parties.
> 
> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient 
> incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke 
> the current process.
> 
> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between 
> registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name 
> makes sense. 
> 
> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay 
> for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should 
> be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" 
> clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the 
> complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
> 
> Volker
>  
> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases 
> when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
> 
> ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve 
> matters between themselves
> 
> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to 
> initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to 
> Compliance
> 
> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a 
> filter to prevent frivolous filings
> 
> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid 
> by registrars, as normal
> 
> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if 
> the registrant wants to proceed.
> 
>  
> 
>  
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>  
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> - Rechtsabteilung -
>  
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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>  
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>  
> Key-Systems GmbH
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> 
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> 
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> Volker A. Greimann
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> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>  
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
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> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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>