Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

["Kevin Erdman" <krerdman@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi Volker,

I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion.  However, when the 
ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional 
contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual 
dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar 
contracts.  The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also 
transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the 
ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that 
handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our 
Charter.

The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one 
possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name.  
The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the 
activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, 
and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad 
faith in light of the trademark rights.  Ownership transfer is a possible form 
of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates.  From 
the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is 
who gets to own the domain.  However, from the perspective of registrars and 
registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights 
and the domain name in question.

IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the 
last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain.  
Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are 
concerned.
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
skype kevimundo
web www.reichelip.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: Volker Greimann 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM
To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman 
Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events 
i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Hi Kevin and Holly,

one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like 
ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the 
registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that 
focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better 
to deal with the the actual problem.

And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the 
UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal 
with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.

Volker


  Well said Kevin 

  Holly

  On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:


    I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain 
name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use 
of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner.  The basis of the 
complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the 
domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation.  The 
facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark 
infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries.  
The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute 
resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark 
infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.

    The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances 
of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there 
might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected.  
I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar 
without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy 
is not currently available.
    ____________________________
    Kevin R Erdman
    Reichel IP LLP
    212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
    Indianapolis, IN 46202
    voice 317.677.0689
    fax 317.454.1349
    email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    skype kevimundo
    web www.reichelip.com
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    From: Dorrain, Kristine
    Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
    To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor
    Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

    I agree.
     
    From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
    Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
    To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
    Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
     
    The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP 
and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and 
the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the 
legitimate owner of a domain name. 

    So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to 
look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. 

    In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation 
for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate 
ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.

    Volker
      Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP 
would be just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this 
warrants an entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to reinvent the 
Rules….UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely 
TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  J
       
      Kristine
       
      From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Volker Greimann
      Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
      To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
      Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
       
      Hi James,

      excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this 
is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is 
a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not 
a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. 

      This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process 
for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated 
to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation 
that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future 
revision of that policy.

      Best,

      Volker




        Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the 
various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can 
legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
         
        For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the 
registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever 
the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If 
its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny 
new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the 
registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any process 
where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without 
merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
         
        Thanks—
         
        J.
         
         
         
        From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
        Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
        To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx" <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
        Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
         
        hi Volker,
         
        i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in 
violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer 
out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute 
between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in 
the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
         
        i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave 
that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to 
comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live 
with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of 
leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made 
"for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except 
worldwide courts.
         
         
        On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:




        Hi Mike,

        you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. 
They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the 
registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. 

        If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to 
initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but 
that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and 
a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to 
handle the process).

        Volker




          i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence 
"give registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is 
to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their 
registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases 
where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but 
i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
           
           
          On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann 
<vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:




          I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process 
dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with 
process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between 
registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between 
two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted 
parties.

          If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be 
sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary 
invoke the current process.

          What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process 
between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain 
name makes sense. 

          I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music 
should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, 
he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a 
"loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk 
of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

          Volker
             
            Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process 
in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue

            ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't 
resolve matters between themselves

            In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to 
whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue 
to Compliance

            Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the 
policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings

            If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with 
fees paid by registrars, as normal

            If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to 
court if the registrant wants to proceed.

             

             
            PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, 
HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
             





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