Re: [gnso-irtpd] Example email string

[Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Kristine,

I am clearly wearing my registrar hat here, but as the gaining 
registrar, we usually have no way of determining whether a transfer has 
been fraudulent or not. What we can see is if we upheld policy in 
effecting the transfer. The is what makes it valid or not.
To see if it was fraudulent or not usually requires information we have 
no access to.
I recently locked down a domain name due to a transfer complaint that 
appears to have many of the signs of a fraudulent transfer. We are the 
secondary gaining registrar on this alleged hijacking, meaning that the 
complainant is not the registrant that authorized the transfer. While I 
agree that there is a strong likelyhood of the transfer being part of a 
chain hijacking, we would not be able to prove it in court if the 
current registrant were to complain that we illegally deprived him of 
his domain name. Hence I feel very uncomfortable in releasing the domain 
name as nothing in ICANN policy would cover or indemnify us from such 
damages. Consequently, we have locked the domain as we would in a UDRP 
and advised the parties to settle this in court.
Best,

Volker

Am 06.02.2014 16:12, schrieb Dorrain, Kristine:
> Yes, I want to be clear, I am not saying we backtrack and include this in the TDRP.  But this type 
> of issue is exactly the one Registrants are seeking a remedy for within ICANN.  And we have to tell 
> them, "sorry ICANN has no provisions for this."  If a Registrar refuses to say "hey 
> we were defrauded at the point of receiving the FOA", then a registrant has no recourse.  The 
> courts are not a good solution because of the same jurisdictional hurdles the other policies 
> address.
>
> I believe we were going to tell ICANN "hey, we note that this is a problem.  You 
> might want to create something new to address this because we determined it doesn't fit 
> in the TDRP."  My point in sending it was to provide concrete evidence of the 
> problem we're recommending ICANN address.
>
> Kristine
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf 
> Of Kevin Erdman
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:04 AM
> To: Volker Greimann
> Cc: rob.golding@xxxxxxxxxxxx; gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] Example email string
>
>
> Hi Rob & Volker,
>
> I disagree with the position that a party using illegally obtained credentials to effect 
> a transfer is a valid transfer.  In the banking world, if I get Rob's banking credentials 
> and transfer $10K to my account in North Korea, I complied with the procedures for a 
> "valid transfer" but the transfer is reversible and has consequences.  In the 
> domain world, most courts have no power to get a domain transferred to North Korea, but 
> ICANN does.  Thus, I think that there should be some allowance to hijack victims under 
> ICANN policy to pursue a fraudulent transfer that was done according to procedure.  The 
> burden placed upon parties that unknowingly participated in the transfer should be 
> minimal, but shutting the door on a hijack victim because the hijackers were really good 
> and followed procedure seems unfair.
> _________________________________
> Kevin R Erdman
>
> cell 317.289.3934
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 6, 2014, at 5:45, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > I tend to agree here. A 'valid transfer' is a transfer where transfer policy 
> > was followed in performing the transfer. An 'invalid transfer' is a transfer 
> > where transfer policy was not followed, or not completely followed.
> >
> > A transfer against the will of the registrant may still have been a valid 
> > transfer, if process was adhered to.
> >
> > Do we need an additional term for such cases?
> >
> > Volker
> > > > See the chain of emails from someone desperate for their registrar
> > > > to file a TDRP-the registrar is refusing.
> > > Whilst I sympathise with the Registrant who has 'lost' control of the domains, 
> > > the transfers were 'valid' in that they went through the normal transfer 
> > > processes, were authorised by the contacts on the domain, and they were started 
> > > by correctly logging into the losing registrar.
> > >
> > > If the details are exactly as described in the PDF I'd suggest they
> > > * first file a report with the police
> > > * go see their legal representative
> > > * contact the registries concerned
> > > * formally write to ICANN (as nothing in there indicated they had
> > > actually raised this with icann)
> > >
> > > Rob
> > --
> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - Rechtsabteilung -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
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> > www.BrandShelter.com
> >
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> >
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> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.:
> > DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
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> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - legal department -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /
> > www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
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> >
> > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the 
author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.