Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

[Kevin Erdman <krerdman@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi Volker,

Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree 
with it, for two reasons.

First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, 
registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in 
control of a domain at a new registrar.  In this case, both real parties and 
both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability.

Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea 
in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter.  
We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not 
here.
_________________________________
Kevin R Erdman

cell 317.289.3934

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a 
> new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that 
> would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked 
> in the current UDRP.
> 
> Basically:
> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner?
> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred 
> illegally?
> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
> 
> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current 
> owner.
> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
> 
> Volker
>> Hi Volker,
>>  
>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion.  However, when 
>> the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, 
>> traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard 
>> contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and 
>> registrant-registrar contracts.  The problem falls outside of this context 
>> when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be 
>> involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are 
>> discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a 
>> registrar is not part of our Charter.
>>  
>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one 
>> possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name.  
>> The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the 
>> activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, 
>> and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in 
>> bad faith in light of the trademark rights.  Ownership transfer is a 
>> possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel 
>> evaluates.  From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input 
>> and the output is who gets to own the domain.  However, from the perspective 
>> of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent 
>> of trademark rights and the domain name in question.
>>  
>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is 
>> the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain.  
>> Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are 
>> concerned.
>> ____________________________
>> Kevin R Erdman
>> Reichel IP LLP
>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>> voice 317.677.0689
>> fax 317.454.1349
>> email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> skype kevimundo
>> web www.reichelip.com
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  
>> From: Volker Greimann
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM
>> To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman
>> Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; 
>> gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>  
>> Hi Kevin and Holly,
>> 
>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like 
>> ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the 
>> registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process 
>> that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be 
>> better to deal with the the actual problem.
>> 
>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under 
>> the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not 
>> deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
>> 
>> Volker
>> 
>>> Well said Kevin
>>>  
>>> Holly
>>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain 
>>>> name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the 
>>>> use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner.  The basis of 
>>>> the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register 
>>>> the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark 
>>>> violation.  The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark 
>>>> rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the 
>>>> registrars and registries.  The UDRP procedures are designed to get the 
>>>> facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark 
>>>> owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or 
>>>> impossible to obtain judicially.
>>>>  
>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances 
>>>> of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but 
>>>> there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want 
>>>> corrected.  I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant 
>>>> or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for 
>>>> scenarios where a remedy is not currently available.
>>>> ____________________________
>>>> Kevin R Erdman
>>>> Reichel IP LLP
>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>>>> voice 317.677.0689
>>>> fax 317.454.1349
>>>> email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> skype kevimundo
>>>> web www.reichelip.com
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  
>>>> From: Dorrain, Kristine
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
>>>> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor
>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>>>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>  
>>>> I agree.
>>>>  
>>>> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
>>>> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>>>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>  
>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the 
>>>> UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that 
>>>> issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who 
>>>> should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. 
>>>> 
>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want 
>>>> to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. 
>>>> 
>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation 
>>>> for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the 
>>>> ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
>>>> 
>>>> Volker
>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would 
>>>> be just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this 
>>>> warrants an entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to reinvent 
>>>> the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is 
>>>> entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  J
>>>>  
>>>> Kristine
>>>>  
>>>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] On 
>>>> Behalf Of Volker Greimann
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
>>>> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>>>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>  
>>>> Hi James,
>>>> 
>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is 
>>>> not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it 
>>>> is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, 
>>>> but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current 
>>>> registrant. 
>>>> 
>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process 
>>>> for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better 
>>>> relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a 
>>>> recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership 
>>>> issues in any future revision of that policy.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Volker
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the 
>>>> various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can 
>>>> legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
>>>>  
>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the 
>>>> registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were 
>>>> ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name 
>>>> pre-transfer.  If its a scenario in which the registrar has                
>>>>                          violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP 
>>>> we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the 
>>>> registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any 
>>>> process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they 
>>>> believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks—
>>>>  
>>>> J.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
>>>> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx" <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>>>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>  
>>>> hi Volker,
>>>>  
>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in 
>>>> violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to 
>>>> transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a 
>>>> dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the 
>>>> policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
>>>>  
>>>> i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
>>>> position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to 
>>>> leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on 
>>>> Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one 
>>>> but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen 
>>>> on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these 
>>>> decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped 
>>>> registrants except worldwide courts.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>> 
>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. 
>>>> They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking 
>>>> the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first 
>>>> place. 
>>>> 
>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate 
>>>> a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that 
>>>> way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and 
>>>> a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work 
>>>> needed to handle the process).
>>>> 
>>>> Volker
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
>>>> registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to 
>>>> ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their 
>>>> registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases 
>>>> where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  
>>>> but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes 
>>>> its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with 
>>>> process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process 
>>>> between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil 
>>>> conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work 
>>>> for contracted parties.
>>>> 
>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient 
>>>> incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke 
>>>> the current process.
>>>> 
>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process 
>>>> between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a 
>>>> domain name                                                           
>>>> makes sense. 
>>>> 
>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay 
>>>> for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he 
>>>> should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a 
>>>> "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the 
>>>> risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is 
>>>> unreachable/etc...
>>>> 
>>>> Volker
>>>>  
>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in 
>>>> cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
>>>> 
>>>> ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve 
>>>> matters                                                           between 
>>>> themselves
>>>> 
>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether 
>>>> to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to 
>>>> Compliance
>>>> 
>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy 
>>>> as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
>>>> 
>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees 
>>>> paid by registrars, as normal
>>>> 
>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if 
>>>> the registrant wants to proceed.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
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>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>  
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>  
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>>>>  
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>  
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>  
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>>> 
>>>> -- 
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>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>  
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>  
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>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>>>  
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
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>>>> Best regards,
>>>>  
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>>>> - legal department -
>>>>  
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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>>>>  
>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>> 
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> 
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>> 
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 
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>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
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>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
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>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>> 
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>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per 
>> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>> 
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> 
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> 
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> 
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>> 
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu 
>> 
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it 
>> is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
>> email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
>> addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify 
>> the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per 
> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
> addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
> email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
> addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify 
> the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
> 
> 
>