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Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

  • To: Kevin Erdman <krerdman@xxxxxxxx>
  • Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
  • From: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:03:11 +0100
Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:

Hi Volker,
Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons.
First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability.
The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations.
Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here.
If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue.
I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that. 

From the TDRP:
(http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp)
"In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a /registrar elects to file /a dispute, the following procedures apply. " 
and
"/Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial/"




_________________________________
Kevin R Erdman

cell 317.289.3934

Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: 


Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. 

Basically:
1) Was the complainant the previous owner?
2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 
3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. 
No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.

Volker

Hi Volker,
I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. 
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
skype kevimundo
web www.reichelip.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Volker Greimann <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM
*To:* Holly Raiche <mailto:h.raiche@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; Kevin Erdman <mailto:krerdman@xxxxxxxx> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@xxxxxxxxxxxx> ; James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx> ; gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP 
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. 

Volker


Well said Kevin
Holly
On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. 
____________________________
Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
Indianapolis, IN 46202
voice 317.677.0689
fax 317.454.1349
emailkevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
skype kevimundo
webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
*To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@xxxxxxxxxxx>;Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx> 
*Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP 
I agree.
*From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
*To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
*Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. 

Volker

    Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to
    the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my
    humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at
    all.  We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are
    great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM
    focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
    Kristine
    *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx]*On
    Behalf Of*Volker Greimann
    *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
    *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
    *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
    *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that
    sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now --
    registrant role in TDRP

    Hi James,

    excellent points there. I think the case with your example is
    that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party
    to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide
    the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those
    roles are better left to prior and current registrant.

    This however begs the question if ICANN should implement
    another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if
    this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the
    UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP
    be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any
    future revision of that policy.

    Best,

    Volker


        Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to
        capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial”
        area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a
        registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
        For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity
        of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot
        substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant
        (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If its a
        scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or
        even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a
        matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation
        could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any process where a
        registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they
        believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the
        proceedings.
        Thanks—
        J.
        *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxx>>
        *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09
        *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
        *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>"
        <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>>
        *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of
        that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now
        -- registrant role in TDRP
        hi Volker,
        i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is
        either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to
        allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively
        denying the registrant due process in a dispute between
        registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the
        policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP
        PDPs was launched.
        i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in
        the best position to figure out the best way to get this
        done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them.  i
        like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply"
        approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i
        can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm
        not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their
        current situation where these decisions get made "for
        them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped
        registrants except worldwide courts.
        On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann
        <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:



        Hi Mike,

        you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries
        of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not
        initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access
        as they do not have such an access in the first place.

        If you want to give the registrant a way to force a
        registrar to initiate a proceeding against another
        registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to
        include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs
        and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to
        cover the work needed to handle the process).

        Volker


            i think the key distinction i want to draw is with
your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that 
            registrants are not blocked from that process by their
            registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal
            mechanism in those cases where registrar and
            registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.
            but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
            On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann
            <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
            <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:



            I still feel that giving registrants access to the
            TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar
            dispute process designed to deal with process
            violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute
            process between registrants, dragging registrars and
            registries into a civil conflict between two parties.
            This will result in increased costs and work for
            contracted parties.

            If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there
            will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars
            to call them out and if necessary invoke the current
            process.

            What we need to look at instead is if creating an
            alternate process between registrant and former
            registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name
            makes sense.

            I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear
            the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a
            registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be
            prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP.
            Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in
            that case it will remain the risk of the complainant
            that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

            Volker

                Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger
                the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with
                their registrar over an IRTP issue

                ·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they
                can't resolve matters between themselves

                In the case of disagreement between registrar and
                registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP,
                provide a path for the registrant to take the
                issue to Compliance

                Build minimum documentation requirements for
                registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent
                frivolous filings

                If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP
                proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars,
                as normal

                If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it
                -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to
                proceed.

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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann 
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH 
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  <mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> 
www.domaindiscount24.com  <http://www.domaindiscount24.com>  /www.BrandShelter.com  
<http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: 
www.facebook.com/KeySystems  <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems  <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin 
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. 


--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web:www.key-systems.net  /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com  /www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web:www.key-systems.net  /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com  /www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the 
author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.






--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web:www.key-systems.net  /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com  /www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web:www.key-systems.net  /www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com  /www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu 
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the 
author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.






--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht 
nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder 
telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems

CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu

This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the 
author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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