Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

["Mike O'Connor" <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>]

so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar disagree 
about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for a determination?

m

On Dec 5, 2013, at 4:45 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Mikey,
> 
> if the registrant believes either the gaining or losing registrar have 
> violated transfer poliy, compliance is the way to go. If the registrar is 
> found to have been in breach of the RAA, he will be required to mend the 
> breach, one option of which may be initiating the TDRP.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Volker
> 
>> whew…
>> 
>> good, but bewildering, discussion.
>> 
>> so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the 
>> registrant disagree about the merits?  where does the registrant go to get 
>> that disagreement resolved?
>> 
>> m
>> 
>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
>>>> Hi Volker,
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I 
>>>> disagree with it, for two reasons.
>>>> 
>>>> First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain 
>>>> hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with 
>>>> a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar.  In this case, both 
>>>> real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have 
>>>> potential liability.
>>> The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to 
>>> provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock 
>>> the domain name. 
>>> Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a 
>>> hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer 
>>> process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively 
>>> deals with policy violations.
>>>> 
>>>> Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good 
>>>> idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's 
>>>> charter.  We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, 
>>>> but just not here.
>>> If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a 
>>> future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the 
>>> better way to deal with the issue.
>>> 
>>> I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into 
>>> a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is 
>>> a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to 
>>> change that.
>>> 
>>> From the TDRP: 
>>> (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp)
>>> "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a registrar elects to file a 
>>> dispute, the following procedures apply. "
>>> and
>>> "Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> _________________________________
>>>> Kevin R Erdman
>>>> 
>>>> cell 317.289.3934
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, 
>>>>> but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions 
>>>>> that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from 
>>>>> those asked in the current UDRP.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Basically:
>>>>> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner?
>>>>> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership 
>>>>> occurred illegally?
>>>>> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
>>>>> 
>>>>> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the 
>>>>> current owner.
>>>>> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Volker
>>>>>> Hi Volker,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion.  However, 
>>>>>> when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, 
>>>>>> traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a 
>>>>>> standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and 
>>>>>> registrant-registrar contracts.  The problem falls outside of this 
>>>>>> context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties 
>>>>>> may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem 
>>>>>> we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes 
>>>>>> within a registrar is not part of our Charter.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather 
>>>>>> one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a 
>>>>>> domain name.  The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal 
>>>>>> with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of 
>>>>>> the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or 
>>>>>> use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights.  
>>>>>> Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that 
>>>>>> the dispute resolution panel evaluates.  From the perspective of a 
>>>>>> registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own 
>>>>>> the domain.  However, from the perspective of registrars and 
>>>>>> registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark 
>>>>>> rights and the domain name in question.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP 
>>>>>> is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a 
>>>>>> domain.  Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of 
>>>>>> which we are concerned.
>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>> Kevin R Erdman
>>>>>> Reichel IP LLP
>>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
>>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>>>>>> voice 317.677.0689
>>>>>> fax 317.454.1349
>>>>>> email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> skype kevimundo
>>>>>> web www.reichelip.com
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> From: Volker Greimann
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM
>>>>>> To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman
>>>>>> Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; 
>>>>>> gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of 
>>>>>> events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Hi Kevin and Holly,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more 
>>>>>> like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems 
>>>>>> for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore 
>>>>>> a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than 
>>>>>> transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with 
>>>>>> under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which 
>>>>>> does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process 
>>>>>> violation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well said Kevin
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Holly
>>>>>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid 
>>>>>>>> domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, 
>>>>>>>> namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark 
>>>>>>>> owner.  The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner 
>>>>>>>> did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the 
>>>>>>>> domain is a trademark                                               
>>>>>>>> violation.  The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark 
>>>>>>>> rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of 
>>>>>>>> the registrars and registries.  The UDRP procedures are designed to 
>>>>>>>> get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the 
>>>>>>>> trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be 
>>>>>>>> difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the 
>>>>>>>> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and 
>>>>>>>> registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a 
>>>>>>>> registrant would want corrected.  I think we should focus on where the 
>>>>>>>> TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only 
>>>>>>>> provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently 
>>>>>>>> available.
>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>> Kevin R Erdman
>>>>>>>> Reichel IP LLP
>>>>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280
>>>>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>>>>>>>> voice 317.677.0689
>>>>>>>> fax 317.454.1349
>>>>>>>> email kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> skype kevimundo
>>>>>>>> web www.reichelip.com
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> From: Dorrain, Kristine
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor
>>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
>>>>>>>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> I agree.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
>>>>>>>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the 
>>>>>>>> UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between 
>>>>>>>> that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties 
>>>>>>>> about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may 
>>>>>>>> want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these 
>>>>>>>> issues. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in 
>>>>>>>> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the 
>>>>>>>> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an 
>>>>>>>> independant panel.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP 
>>>>>>>> would be just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion 
>>>>>>>> this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to 
>>>>>>>> reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy 
>>>>>>>> itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up 
>>>>>>>> to non-TM holders.  J
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Kristine
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx] 
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
>>>>>>>> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
>>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
>>>>>>>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that 
>>>>>>>> this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the 
>>>>>>>> dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the 
>>>>>>>> information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are 
>>>>>>>> better left to prior and current registrant. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another 
>>>>>>>> process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be 
>>>>>>>> better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for 
>>>>>>>> example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also 
>>>>>>>> domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the 
>>>>>>>> various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar 
>>>>>>>> can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the 
>>>>>>>> registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they 
>>>>>>>> were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name 
>>>>>>>> pre-transfer.  If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated 
>>>>>>>> the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is 
>>>>>>>> a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be 
>>>>>>>> at-risk.  But we should avoid any process where a registrar is 
>>>>>>>> compelled to                                                         
>>>>>>>> initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to 
>>>>>>>> pay for the proceedings.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Thanks—
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> From: Mike O'Connor <mike@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
>>>>>>>> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx" <gnso-irtpd@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence 
>>>>>>>> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> hi Volker,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in 
>>>>>>>> violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to 
>>>>>>>> transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process 
>>>>>>>> in a dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight 
>>>>>>>> in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was 
>>>>>>>> launched.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best 
>>>>>>>> position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to 
>>>>>>>> leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on 
>>>>>>>> Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler 
>>>>>>>> one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm 
>>>>>>>> not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in                         
>>>>>>>>                                   their current situation where these 
>>>>>>>> decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for 
>>>>>>>> trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann 
>>>>>>>> <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. 
>>>>>>>> They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not 
>>>>>>>> blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in 
>>>>>>>> the first place. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to 
>>>>>>>> initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another 
>>>>>>>> story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant 
>>>>>>>> to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service 
>>>>>>>> (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give 
>>>>>>>> registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent 
>>>>>>>> is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by 
>>>>>>>> their registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in 
>>>>>>>> those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP 
>>>>>>>> is warranted.  but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty 
>>>>>>>> high.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann 
>>>>>>>> <vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process 
>>>>>>>> dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to 
>>>>>>>> deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute 
>>>>>>>> process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a 
>>>>>>>> civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased 
>>>>>>>> costs and work for contracted parties.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be 
>>>>>>>> sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if 
>>>>>>>> necessary invoke the current process.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process 
>>>>>>>> between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a 
>>>>>>>> domain name makes sense. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should 
>>>>>>>> pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be 
>>>>>>>> invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the 
>>>>>>>> UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case 
>>>>>>>> it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot 
>>>>>>>> pay/is unreachable/etc...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Volker
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in 
>>>>>>>> cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve 
>>>>>>>> matters between themselves
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to 
>>>>>>>> whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to       
>>>>>>>>                                                     take the issue to 
>>>>>>>> Compliance
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the 
>>>>>>>> policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with 
>>>>>>>> fees paid by registrars, as normal
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to 
>>>>>>>> court if the registrant wants to proceed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: 
>>>>>>>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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>>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>>  
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>>  
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den 
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>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to 
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>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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>>>>>>>> content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely 
>>>>>>>> on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected 
>>>>>>>> this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or 
>>>>>>>> contacting us by telephone.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den 
>>>>>>>> angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, 
>>>>>>>> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist 
>>>>>>>> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so 
>>>>>>>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung 
>>>>>>>> zu setzen.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to 
>>>>>>>> contact us.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay 
>>>>>>>> updated:
>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to 
>>>>>>>> whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any 
>>>>>>>> content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely 
>>>>>>>> on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected 
>>>>>>>> this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or 
>>>>>>>> contacting us by telephone.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
>>>>>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
>>>>>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
>>>>>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns 
>>>>>> per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact 
>>>>>> us.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay 
>>>>>> updated:
>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom 
>>>>>> it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content 
>>>>>> of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this 
>>>>>> e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this 
>>>>>> e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or 
>>>>>> contacting us by telephone.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>> 
>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> 
>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>> 
>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>>> 
>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
>>>>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
>>>>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
>>>>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns 
>>>>> per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact 
>>>>> us.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>>> - legal department -
>>>>> 
>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> 
>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay 
>>>>> updated:
>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>>>> 
>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>> 
>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom 
>>>>> it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content 
>>>>> of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this 
>>>>> e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this 
>>>>> e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting 
>>>>> us by telephone.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>> 
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>> 
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>> 
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> 
>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>> 
>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>> 
>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>> 
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>> 
>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
>>> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
>>> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
>>> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per 
>>> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - legal department -
>>> 
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> 
>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>> 
>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>> 
>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>> 
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu 
>>> 
>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it 
>>> is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of 
>>> this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. 
>>> If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly 
>>> notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: 
>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen 
> Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder 
> Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese 
> Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per 
> E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> 
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> 
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
> 
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken 
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> 
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu 
> 
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is 
> addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this 
> email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an 
> addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify 
> the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
> 
> 
> 


PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP 
(ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)